Esport Poker League03.08.2005, 21:18 • written by Gus 'ChillPill' Logan • 1259 views
UD casters
I've been stewing over this a long time but after some recent WC3 tournament results, I finally decided to post it. I really think the UD versus Orc matchup is too onesided in favor of Orc.Two recent examples: In the Battle.Net Season II Championship, ReMinD decided to play Orc after losing game 1 to Fury, a UD player. In WC3L action, rS.Hunter switched from HU to Orc when matched up against UD WinneR-- both to take advantage of Orc's dominance over UD.
It reminds me of the dark days when the NE lorded over UD before the Panda/FL nerf. Against Orc, with the exception of a few elite players, it's practically unwinnable for a UD (Lucifer, GoStop, FoV, perhaps...).
The problem, naturally, with buffing one race is that it often causes their other racial MUs to become imbalanced (I was once crazy enough to suggest that the NE's KotG's Ents should be able to root and attack air like a Protector and the PoTM's Searing Arrow should split twice then thrice at higher levels, like the scattershot of Medusa in DotA). This was to help NEs deal with the ghoul-garg combo on non-tavern maps. where they lack AoE. Then, I realized that would totally overpower the NE against the Orcs and HUs.
However, with regard to the UD-Orc matchup, I think it's possible to buff the UD without significantly tilting the scales against HUs and NEs.
My suggestion is for the new patch to buff the UD casters-- that's all. Casters are by far the Achilles heel of the Orc and I think that's why they're so dominant against UDs-- because the UD casters are so impotent. However, even if you were to buff the UD casters, it wouldn't put HUs and NEs at a disadvantage because no UD in his right mind would get into a caster war with either race because of all their anti-magic abilities (Spell Steal, Dispel, Abolish, Detonate). If the UDs had better casters, it would definitely go a long way towards balancing their MU against Orcs while still keeping their MUs against HUs and NEs balanced.
My suggestions:
1.) Take away Frost Armor from the Lich and give it to Banshees in favor of Curse. Frost Armor has always worked well against Orc from the games I've seen, it's just that no UD can afford to pass up Nova for it.
2.) While we're transferring hero spells, give Necros Howl of Terror (a comical spell for a hero) over Unholy Frenzy (by far the least used caster spell in the game) and remove Raise Dead (practically free XP, not to mention redundant with Rods of Necromancy). I don't know what spell I would replace it... :S Curse?
This way Banshees would have Frost Armor/Spell Shield/Possess; Necromancers spell TBD/Howl of Terror/Cripple
Feel free to comment. :D Just a fan's opinionated rant...
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Replies (41)
   #1 03.08.2005, 21:33 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | Whoa. :O Didn't realize how long this rant was... (sheepish grin).... :S |
Inactive    #2 03.08.2005, 21:54 Posts : 264 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | yeah pretty long and intresting suggestions ;) ______________________ Its Mr. Replay manager to you ! *_* -Ohjeohje |
#3 04.08.2005, 01:43  Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | that would make the casters over all... frost armor slows like shit and howl of terror is pretty strong even on lvl 1. ______________________ <3 mercy |
#4 04.08.2005, 03:16 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | yes mass frost armor would rape everything and make all armies useless. + you can use it on a hero, meaning that with some micro, ud heroes would be unkillable. ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#5 04.08.2005, 03:52 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | I wouldn't expect Howl or Frost Armor to be at hero levels, for one. Second, the other races have so many anti-magic spells, I don't see how it would make all armies "useless." HUs would be able to steal it or dispel, whichever they choose, and NEs would either detonate Wisps or use the Dryad's Abolish. The ones that would have a difficult time with this proposed buff would be Orcs, which is the whole point of my argument. Yes they can Purge, yes they can Disenchant, but that would force them to build a Lodge, allocating valuable resources that they would otherwise spend on Bestiary units, which are the bane of the UD (Raiders, Bats and Wyverns). The way I see it, it gives UDs a fighting chance against Orcs without overpowering them against NEs or HUs. Also, there are already creeps in the game that cast Frost Armor so it's not that farfetched. Sweety, you did make me think about one possible abuse, though. Frost Armor on UD heroes plus Anti-Magic Shell would be undeniably devastating. -_- |
#6 04.08.2005, 04:30 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | this howl of terror idea with 1 unit per spell and being like Slow would be great imo. forget the frost armor.. just imba :P and the prob would be that Orc couldnt win vs UD anymore.. this casters + some fiends (mass frost armor and no damage from grunt/raiders/wyvs) and then the fucking OVERPOWERED Destroyers :))))) maybe even dispelling their own spells to get mana and own the whole orc army :). btw. im sick.. im on holidays, cant sleep and im online @ 4:32 xd ______________________ <3 mercy |
#7 04.08.2005, 08:50 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | Hmmm... UD devouring their own spells for Orb of Annihilation.. Good point, BiG... Stupid imba Destroyers and their parasitic overpoweredness... :@ As for Frost Armor on Fiends, it does own Orc when used, it's just every UD player needs to put spell points on Nova and can't skip Dark Ritual coz there's no way they can have enough mana for Nova AND Frost Armor. I actually got the idea for Frost Armor being a caster spell from playing Maelstrom, where you can buy those Furbogs with Frost Armor at the merc camp. I love massing them. ;) |
#8 04.08.2005, 09:53 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | old eO.Olle played frost armor and nova and had no probs. ______________________ <3 mercy |
#9 04.08.2005, 09:54 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | ah btw. remember old times of ud when they dispelled their own scroll of protection to have mana cuz they couldnt suck on statues xd ______________________ <3 mercy |
#10 04.08.2005, 16:23 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | Lol BiG 1. Since a few patches, destroyers dont get mana when dispelling their own spells(scrolls included) or spells from their allies. 2. They have always been able to absorb mana from statues <3 ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#11 04.08.2005, 18:04 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | they dispell their own spells (unholy frenzy etc.) just not their own summons and they have not always been able to absorb mana from statues. ______________________ <3 mercy |
#12 05.08.2005, 11:10 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | BiG, they often didn't need to absorb/steal mana/spells from their own units-- not when they were able to charge up their Orb of Annihilation on mana fountains! Gawd, was that imba.... |
#14 05.08.2005, 15:28 Posts : 79 Member since : 30 Mar 05 | Stupid idea imo, i agree that Ud casters need to be buffed. And i agree that Orc Vs Ud is imba. But giving necromancers frost armor and howl of terror...cmon this is absurd. I dont think a howl from a necromancer would scare anyone. And they have no link to Frost abilities. And besides i rather like curse much better than howl of terror, its a very usefull move. Heres what i think should happen with Ud casters. Leave banshees alone they are fine how theyh are. And then Instead of raise the dead on auto cast put frenzy on auto cast. This makes muchmore sense considering that every other race, with the exception of nightelf, have a Buff spell such as BL and IF which are auto cast. Undeads Frenzy is better than both by far but is not used due to the fact that it has to be microed. And big dont complain about destroyers they arent Imba. If Ud didnt have them we couldnt win. Dont complain becasue u cant counter them. -_- |
#15 05.08.2005, 15:33 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | Hmmm... Yeah, I agree with your suggestion for Unholy Frenzy being autocast. However, I did not intend for Howl and Frost Armor to both be Necro spells, just Howl. Frost Armor would go to Banshees, which I feel have a "link" as you put it to Frost abilities. Sorry, I'm just not a fan of Curse. Maybe if it reduced vision for ranged units and had a percentage chance to miss and hit a friendly unit (like the footman's Defend), then it would be okay. As is, I think it's a weak first spell compared to Slow, Heal, Faerie Fire and even Spirit Link. |
#16 05.08.2005, 20:59 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | mance you say yourself that you cant counter them :) ______________________ <3 mercy |
#17 05.08.2005, 21:22 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | #11 read better what I wrote: ofc they can eat your own spells, but they don't get mana from them. And yes, they have always been able to absorb mana... ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#18 05.08.2005, 21:24 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | By the way, autocast frenzy would be extremely powerful, because its much more powerful than bloodlust. And curse is an excellent spell... 1 chance out of 3 to miss lol! ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#19 05.08.2005, 21:37 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | As powerful as Curse, Unholy Frenzy, et al. may be (though I still doubt their potency), the point is still that they pose little danger to HUs and NEs, who have much more powerful anti-magic spells (as a HU player suggesting these buffs, I can't say I'm too worried about it putting me too much at a disadvantage). UDs would still be best served going with the traditional ghoul-garg combo against NE; Tri-hero nukeage with Aboms and Destros against HUs. It's the MU against Orc where these buffed spells would effect gameplay and balance the most. |
#20 05.08.2005, 23:10 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | well make unholy frenzy autocast and nerf some speed. I had unholy frenzy frenzy ghuls once... hhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm you couldnt see them hitting anymore:P. And fiends with unholy frenzy rock hard too ^^. curse is good, really good. Many players play bashees cuz of curse vs Orc. Its very powerful but this standard Uds who can only play mass destroyers dont see that. ______________________ <3 mercy |
| Inactive #21 06.08.2005, 01:03 Posts : 264 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | guys there is one problem... unholy frenzy cant be make autocast because you can cast it both enemies and you... ______________________ Its Mr. Replay manager to you ! *_* -Ohjeohje |
#22 06.08.2005, 01:10 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | then make it castable only on your units ~+ ______________________ <3 mercy |
#23 06.08.2005, 02:25 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | And you also need statues to match their effects. ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#25 06.08.2005, 11:26 Posts : 203 Member since : 15 Jan 05 | Lol I bet they die because of the spell xD ______________________ Do not think you are, know you are. |
#26 06.08.2005, 12:09 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | Can Spellbreakers spell steal Unholy Frenzy? If they can, I'm not sure I'd want them to, what with so many low HP HU units... And what happens when a UD casts it on a HU unit? Does the Spellbreaker return it to a UD unit? I can't believe I've played the game this long and I've never had this happen... O_o |
 #27 06.08.2005, 12:32 Posts : 1004 Member since : 16 Mar 05 | Exactly, so many things to conjure up~! And then people get bored of the same strats -_-' |
#28 07.08.2005, 00:57 Posts : 172 Member since : 13 Jan 05 | Speaking of Spellbreakers, is it too much to ask that when they steal a spell/s, they give it to the most important unit/s first: heroes, Gryphons, Knights and so on...?!? Seriously, Blizzard!... I'm sick and tired of getting Roar on a $!%#^ militia!! :@ |
#29 07.08.2005, 21:59 Posts : 29 Member since : 22 Jan 05 | heh i used a wand of the wind today for destroyer food(picked up his hero surrounded it sucked it up with destroyer and killed hero. ______________________ Elroy is the man!!! |
#30 07.08.2005, 23:05 Posts : 498 Member since : 06 Jan 05 | well.. thats a destroyer.. an imba machine. ______________________ <3 mercy |
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Posted By
 Gus 'ChillPill' Logan United States |
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