UD casters

[ChillPill]

I've been stewing over this a long time but after some recent WC3 tournament results, I finally decided to post it. I really think the UD versus Orc matchup is too onesided in favor of Orc.

Two recent examples: In the Battle.Net Season II Championship, ReMinD decided to play Orc after losing game 1 to Fury, a UD player. In WC3L action, rS.Hunter switched from HU to Orc when matched up against UD WinneR-- both to take advantage of Orc's dominance over UD.

It reminds me of the dark days when the NE lorded over UD before the Panda/FL nerf. Against Orc, with the exception of a few elite players, it's practically unwinnable for a UD (Lucifer, GoStop, FoV, perhaps...).

The problem, naturally, with buffing one race is that it often causes their other racial MUs to become imbalanced (I was once crazy enough to suggest that the NE's KotG's Ents should be able to root and attack air like a Protector and the PoTM's Searing Arrow should split twice then thrice at higher levels, like the scattershot of Medusa in DotA). This was to help NEs deal with the ghoul-garg combo on non-tavern maps. where they lack AoE. Then, I realized that would totally overpower the NE against the Orcs and HUs.

However, with regard to the UD-Orc matchup, I think it's possible to buff the UD without significantly tilting the scales against HUs and NEs.
My suggestion is for the new patch to buff the UD casters-- that's all. Casters are by far the Achilles heel of the Orc and I think that's why they're so dominant against UDs-- because the UD casters are so impotent. However, even if you were to buff the UD casters, it wouldn't put HUs and NEs at a disadvantage because no UD in his right mind would get into a caster war with either race because of all their anti-magic abilities (Spell Steal, Dispel, Abolish, Detonate). If the UDs had better casters, it would definitely go a long way towards balancing their MU against Orcs while still keeping their MUs against HUs and NEs balanced.

My suggestions:

1.) Take away Frost Armor from the Lich and give it to Banshees in favor of Curse. Frost Armor has always worked well against Orc from the games I've seen, it's just that no UD can afford to pass up Nova for it.

2.) While we're transferring hero spells, give Necros Howl of Terror (a comical spell for a hero) over Unholy Frenzy (by far the least used caster spell in the game) and remove Raise Dead (practically free XP, not to mention redundant with Rods of Necromancy). I don't know what spell I would replace it... :S Curse?

This way Banshees would have Frost Armor/Spell Shield/Possess; Necromancers spell TBD/Howl of Terror/Cripple

Feel free to comment. Just a fan's opinionated rant...

[ChillPill]

Whoa. :O Didn't realize how long this rant was... (sheepish grin).... :S

[ohjeohje]

yeah pretty long and intresting suggestions

[BiG]

that would make the casters over all... frost armor slows like shit and howl of terror is pretty strong even on lvl 1.

[imported_sweety]

yes mass frost armor would rape everything and make all armies useless. + you can use it on a hero, meaning that with some micro, ud heroes would be unkillable.

[ChillPill]

I wouldn't expect Howl or Frost Armor to be at hero levels, for one. Second, the other races have so many anti-magic spells, I don't see how it would make all armies "useless." HUs would be able to steal it or dispel, whichever they choose, and NEs would either detonate Wisps or use the Dryad's Abolish. The ones that would have a difficult time with this proposed buff would be Orcs, which is the whole point of my argument. Yes they can Purge, yes they can Disenchant, but that would force them to build a Lodge, allocating valuable resources that they would otherwise spend on Bestiary units, which are the bane of the UD (Raiders, Bats and Wyverns). The way I see it, it gives UDs a fighting chance against Orcs without overpowering them against NEs or HUs.

Also, there are already creeps in the game that cast Frost Armor so it's not that farfetched.

Sweety, you did make me think about one possible abuse, though. Frost Armor on UD heroes plus Anti-Magic Shell would be undeniably devastating. -_-

[BiG]

this howl of terror idea with 1 unit per spell and being like Slow would be great imo. forget the frost armor.. just imba :P

and the prob would be that Orc couldnt win vs UD anymore.. this casters + some fiends (mass frost armor and no damage from grunt/raiders/wyvs) and then the fucking OVERPOWERED Destroyers )))) maybe even dispelling their own spells to get mana and own the whole orc army .

btw. im sick.. im on holidays, cant sleep and im online @ 4:32 xd

[ChillPill]

Hmmm... UD devouring their own spells for Orb of Annihilation.. Good point, BiG... Stupid imba Destroyers and their parasitic overpoweredness... :@

As for Frost Armor on Fiends, it does own Orc when used, it's just every UD player needs to put spell points on Nova and can't skip Dark Ritual coz there's no way they can have enough mana for Nova AND Frost Armor.

I actually got the idea for Frost Armor being a caster spell from playing Maelstrom, where you can buy those Furbogs with Frost Armor at the merc camp. I love massing them.

[BiG]

old eO.Olle played frost armor and nova and had no probs.

[BiG]

ah btw. remember old times of ud when they dispelled their own scroll of protection to have mana cuz they couldnt suck on statues xd

[imported_sweety]

Lol BiG

1. Since a few patches, destroyers dont get mana when dispelling their own spells(scrolls included) or spells from their allies.
2. They have always been able to absorb mana from statues <3

[BiG]

they dispell their own spells (unholy frenzy etc.) just not their own summons

and they have not always been able to absorb mana from statues.

[ChillPill]

BiG, they often didn't need to absorb/steal mana/spells from their own units-- not when they were able to charge up their Orb of Annihilation on mana fountains! Gawd, was that imba....

[BiG]

agree

[Mance-Ryder]

Stupid idea imo, i agree that Ud casters need to be buffed. And i agree that Orc Vs Ud is imba. But giving necromancers frost armor and howl of terror...cmon this is absurd. I dont think a howl from a necromancer would scare anyone. And they have no link to Frost abilities. And besides i rather like curse much better than howl of terror, its a very usefull move. Heres what i think should happen with Ud casters. Leave banshees alone they are fine how theyh are. And then Instead of raise the dead on auto cast put frenzy on auto cast. This makes muchmore sense considering that every other race, with the exception of nightelf, have a Buff spell such as BL and IF which are auto cast. Undeads Frenzy is better than both by far but is not used due to the fact that it has to be microed.

And big dont complain about destroyers they arent Imba. If Ud didnt have them we couldnt win. Dont complain becasue u cant counter them. -_-

[ChillPill]

Hmmm... Yeah, I agree with your suggestion for Unholy Frenzy being autocast. However, I did not intend for Howl and Frost Armor to both be Necro spells, just Howl. Frost Armor would go to Banshees, which I feel have a "link" as you put it to Frost abilities. Sorry, I'm just not a fan of Curse. Maybe if it reduced vision for ranged units and had a percentage chance to miss and hit a friendly unit (like the footman's Defend), then it would be okay. As is, I think it's a weak first spell compared to Slow, Heal, Faerie Fire and even Spirit Link.

[BiG]

mance you say yourself that you cant counter them

[imported_sweety]

#11 read better what I wrote: ofc they can eat your own spells, but they don't get mana from them.

And yes, they have always been able to absorb mana...

[imported_sweety]

By the way, autocast frenzy would be extremely powerful, because its much more powerful than bloodlust. And curse is an excellent spell... 1 chance out of 3 to miss lol!

[ChillPill]

As powerful as Curse, Unholy Frenzy, et al. may be (though I still doubt their potency), the point is still that they pose little danger to HUs and NEs, who have much more powerful anti-magic spells (as a HU player suggesting these buffs, I can't say I'm too worried about it putting me too much at a disadvantage). UDs would still be best served going with the traditional ghoul-garg combo against NE; Tri-hero nukeage with Aboms and Destros against HUs. It's the MU against Orc where these buffed spells would effect gameplay and balance the most.