MYM - Warcraft 3 News: *** Hoorai proved banktransfers

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13th April 2008, 23:15

*** Hoorai proved banktransfers

A week ago, the manager of German organization Germany hoorai.XQ Lari ''D.Devil' Syrota stated in an interview with GosuGamers that they do not want to see their key player Finland Undead elfittaja leave this early.

He said: "If Samuli refuses to play for hoorai.XQ, it is the only logical consequence that he will not be eligible for any other clan unless his contract runs out. Of course, our contracts would make it possible for us to force him to continue playing for us, however we do not see any point in doing this. As long as he is not interested in achieving the best possible results for our team, we have to get along without him."

Yestarday, Russian Fede- Gravitas Gaming announced the joining of Finland Undead elfittaja (See - GG acquires elfittaja ). On top of that, Gravitas manager Germany suNNy has confirmed the attendance of the Finnish Undead at the upcoming CESO2008.

Today however, Germany hoorai.XQ manager Germany Jerome 'je' Evans told readmore.de that there will be a protest at the ESL and the G7, should the player represent Gravitas Gaming at any tournament.

What the future holds for the 17-year-old remains unknown at the point of writing.

Update: The saga continues with 2 statements made public from the respective managers.

myMYM contacted another manager, Germany Lari 'D.Devil' Syrota as well, who responded with the following statement:

The situation is pretty clear: hoorai.XQ does have a legally binding player contract with Samuli Sihvonen. We neither broke the regulations stated in the contract nor made use of the player transfer provisions. This means that elfittaja has no right to dissolve his contract and become active for Gravitas Gaming.

Any claims about hoorai not having fulfilled its contractual obligations towards elfittaja do not have any fundament as we can easily prove. Furthermore, we did not provide him any reasons not to be satisfied with hoorai's support as we successfully put a lot of effort into giving him the opportunity to improve as a player.

Gravitas' transfer fee offer was not adequate at all, so we made clear that, under these conditions, we are not willing to let elfittaja go. Of course, it is really disappointing to see that Gravitas decided to present him despite knowing that he's still under contract with another esports organization, but let this be their business.

As a matter of fact, a clan like hoorai has to be able to rely on its players and the legal force of the contracts to be successful in the long run. Therefore, it is of utmost importance for us to make sure that our contracts are respected. As soon as elfittaja becomes active for Gravitas Gaming in any tournaments, we will draw the corresponding consequences which include barring the player from tournament play and more.

There is no reason why we should give in to Gravitas Gaming: We do not have any difficulties with fullfiling elfittaja's demands and, as an esports organization, are not inferior to them in any way.

Over at GravitasGaming.net, Canada cbnz replied with the following press release:

Recently Gravitas Gaming proudly announced an addition to our organization in Samuli 'elfittaja' Sihvonen. In October of 2007 elfittaja signed a contract with Jerome Evans, the representative of hoorai (as hoorai are not a registered German entity). During this time we were seeking to sign a quality Undead player, and ended up speaking with Samuli about joining. Although the contract was not set to expire until June of 2008, Samuli informed us that he had been missing payments for salary, and had not yet been reimbursed for travel to an event.

We tried at first to settle a deal with Jerome to transfer Samuli. After some very abrupt and rude conversations we took his contract to a lawyer in Hamburg and informed him of the details. Very quickly we were told that both the illegally large fines in the contract, and a lack of salary payment invalidated the contract. Samuli then gave notice (a courtesy, not a legal requirement) that if they did not pay him the entire missing salary in full he would legally terminate his contract. This prompted hoorai to start a public misinformation campaign where they blamed Samuli and claimed to have done absolutely nothing wrong. To this day Samuli has yet to receive the entire payment entitled to him.

We've tried numerous times to deal with this issue privately with hoorai, but they continue to insist on bringing it to a public forum. After consulting with our legal council on a number of occasions before signing Samuli, we are more than confident that both Gravitas and Samuli stand on the correct side of this issue. We hope that hoorai will soon see this for what it really is, and won't continue to libel our team and player.

myMYM contacted again the manager, Germany Lari 'D.Devil' Syrota and here is what he had to say about Gravitas statement:

Once again, we would like to stress that claims about elfi not receiving his money are not true. Also, it is not true that we wanted to take this into public as elfittaja simply left our team accounts making it necessary for us to vindicate ourselves towards the press.

Update:

According to the German newspage readmore.de hoorai's manager Germany Lari 'D.Devil' Syrota has shown proof from the bank that elfittaja has received every salary. In Feburary, it was delayed for three weeks but in the following month it was on time. The contract of the 17 year old undead gamer was also signed by his parents.

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Comments (78)

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(last year) #1 ZxeR

pretty sad ;(

(last year) #2 MrGekko

You shouldn't sign a contract if youre not gonna live up to it. I hope he will get punished, otherwise it would be bad for professionalism in esports. Why would teams make contract and pay players if the players just fuck the team and do as they please?

(last year) #6 GenoZStriker

Very quickly we were told that both the illegally large fines in the contract, and a lack of salary payment invalidated the contract.

You shouldn't make a contract that the player is going to sign and agree on terms if you also do not full fill with your promise. Simple Elfittaja sign and plays for Hoorai, they do not pay him, he doesn't play for them and he breaks the contract, actually they already done it so ya.

Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/

(last year) #12 MrGekko

Well like i said you shouldn't sign a contract if u can't live up to it. This applies to the team as well as the player of course. I just assumed hoorai fullfilled their part since the news only stated that he broke the contract at the time i wrote the comment.

(last year) #3 losemann

thats going to be the next online drama? :-/ [www.losemann.asia] - my blog

(last year) #4 Kompik

hmm i hope he plays for gg, he started playing s*it since he is in horai - the team is not on his skill level. but its his problem for signing a contract so i am pretty curious how this turns out.

(last year) #5 GoaT

Stupid mistake. Nine Vires Nors

(last year) #7 -_-Tr1a

lol say bb hoorai :D

(last year) #8 SquiRReL

he did recieve it, just a month late :/

(last year) #17 nebu

he recieved jan./feb. regulary just the march sallary had a 3 week delay.. turn on, tune in, drop out..

(last year) #9 myMYM\|uNder

what a drama .. tolly shocking ! even if you lose > never give up !

(last year) #10 An1mA

Will the drama soap continue ? Against All Odds~~

(last year) #11 technics

yay finally some new drama :D

(last year) #13 flesh_de

hoorai sent bank vouchers to readmore.de, proving that elfi recieved all the money hoorai had to pay him seems like Gravitas is going to get kicked in the face with leg :/

(last year) #14 Legato

Once again, I find it really hilarious that hoorai is considering taking legal action on this issue. When myself, nilk, pato, naniwa, rukie etc were in hoorai, they failed to make any payments at all to the players and just said "we can't fulfill our side of the contract, sorry!" ... and continued on as if it didn't matter So now after stomping all over our contracts, a year later they are INSISTING that the player follow his. Yet ontop of this, cbnz seems to assert that hoorai's contract not only has illegal clauses, but failed to make all payments and reimbursements to elfitajja Guess which side I believe?

(last year) #15 Shival

If they've send bank vouchers I'll go for hoorai..
Something that's in the past (as in resolved) shouldn't be used for arguments in the present. People and organisations can change.

Although, "Very quickly we were told that the illegally large fines in the contract,..." could be a huge problem for hoorai.

(last year) #31 xpr1mnt

I think "something that's in the past" is making Hoorai's current reputation. We should ask Roccat cs team (ex-Hoorai) and ex-HooraiWC3 team, what do they think about this organization.

Last edited by xpr1mnt at 14.04.2008, 13:08

(last year) #33 Shival

Sure, they've got the reputation. But it cannot be used in an argument, as it's only proof that it happened before. It doesn't hold any credibility in this case.

(last year) #32 xpr1mnt

I think "something that's in the past" is making Hoorai's current reputation. We should ask Roccat cs team (ex-Hoorai) and ex-HooraiWC3 team, what they think about this organization.

(last year) #16 verGe_desRow

WORD LEGATO! IN THA BUTT ?!?!

(last year) #18 Noname

Assuming that elfi didn't get paid - What happens if elfi gets all the salary and stuff that hoorai promised? Doesn't that make him eligible to play for hoorai again or get benched as per their demands?

off topic -> drama!

(last year) #39 hoorai.DDevil

This is not the case here because we don't have any debts towards elfittjaja.

Still, it's an interesting point you got there. Actually, as long as he did not file a complaint against the delay, it would legally even work out. We had an absolutely similar case with DNA, who was under contract with evoplay, in September 2007: They actually removed the whole WC3 team and weren't really going to keep DNA, but still recieved a transfer fee because the contract was still in force for three months - the missing salary was claimed to be a delay. Although this might be pretty annoying, you just have to respect these regulations if you consider yourself to be a serious esports organization.
Sidenote: Funnily enough, the transfer fee we paid for DNA at that time is almost equal to the elfittaja transfer fee offered by Gravitas (eventhough evoplay didn't even really want to keep him). Well, okay, doesn't matter...

Last edited by DDevil at 14.04.2008, 15:43

(last year) #41 Phil

Another ot question: Are you using G7-certified contracts?

I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #43 hoorai.DDevil

No, at the time when we signed him, the G7 contracts weren't released yet. However, we are using them now.

(last year) #47 Phil

Okay. Great step :) I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #19 losemann

as readmore.de states, he got paid and they showed the bank transfers. according to them february was 3 weeks late but rest was in time. [www.losemann.asia] - my blog

(last year) #20 manhunter321

my god wats happening with him you will know and recognise me after somtime

(last year) #21 DirectC

If guy try to cheat hoorai, they should take all legal actions against him and his new team.

(last year) #22 technics

tune in next time for "as the e-sport world turns!" :P

(last year) #23 oX

It looks like elfittaja just isn't mature enough to live up too his contract. You just don't join organisation if you're still under contract with another.

(last year) #24 cultking

That's the problem you get if you (have to) do business with children.. T_T

Pull me down again and guide me into pain.

(last year) #26 Malystryx

my thoughts exactly Lawrence "SK.Malystryx" Phillips ~ SK Gaming

(last year) #25 KPSatiini

I smell teh photoshop

(last year) #28 wNv\|VBadGirl

That would be an incredible dumb move by Hoorai to do, specially after they spoke about legal actions.

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #29 losemann

why should readmore do such thing? that does not make any sense for them to support a team which is not telling the truth? I guess beemit thought exactly about this matter and he is only signing with his name and the name of the company, when he is 100% sure that its correct and not hurting himself or his company

[www.losemann.asia] - my blog

(last year) #30 SirZ

losemann how would u and nordahl handle something like this if it was between sk and mym :)

(last year) #34 Phil

Firstly, not in public. Secondly, you wouldn't know because of the first point :p

I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #36 KPSatiini

only kidding ;) doubt they have any documents even, just trying to scare elfi, but we all know there is no way in a million years hoorai would ever go to a real court with this matter and even if they did they wouldnt stand a chance of winning

(last year) #38 Phil

Wrong reply, but I wholeheartedly concur with you!! (:D) I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #48 wNv\|VBadGirl

well they could have been lied by Hoorai as well. Do you think it's that hard to fabricate some bank statements just to prove your point? maybe.. the truth is always in the middle you know. Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #27 lolxxx17984

e-sports lol

(last year) #35 KPSatiini

imagine if elfi ate with his salary and it was late, he would have starved, this is very unprofessional by hoorai!

(last year) #37 Shival

He's 17 years.. his parents are responsible for feeding him... nice try though.

Last edited by Shival at 14.04.2008, 15:19

(last year) #40 Phil

If you go by principles it doesn't matter. I would seriously be pissed if I wasn't paid on time, but I don't know when it will count as "mistreating the contract" though.

I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #45 Shival

Agreed, everyone would be pissed. But it's the risk you take when you're on employement with a high-risk endeavour (which e-sport teams are). Just like common sports, their finances come and go.

Last edited by Shival at 14.04.2008, 17:04

(last year) #49 Phil

Unless it is clearly written in the contract that payments can be delayed and that is normal procedure, I would say that the contract is mistreated. And I hardly think that they have a clause like that.

While finances come and go, you won't see companies not paying their employees on time and being let off the hook. If the can't pay, then the company / club - is put under administration or even judged bankrupt.

I'm forever blowing bubbles!

(last year) #51 Shival

Actually, you do see companies not paying their employees for a while if they are in financial need. It is quite a while later before they're judged bankrupt. I do agree however that there is virtually no chance for a clause stating he can be paid any time, but I also doubt it states the exact date in which he should be paid. Alas, if it doesn't there's no contract breach. Same month, same pay. Last edited by Shival at 14.04.2008, 18:49

(last year) #42 KPSatiini

try reading more carefully next time, think you missed something

(last year) #44 Shival

I didn't miss the imagine part, but the whole imagine part doesn't count because it's just not possible. Don't assume something that easily, first look at your own arguments. It would be much better if you just said it like Phil did, although, getting it 3 weeks later for once isn't that bad. It's the risk you take when you are employed by e-sport teams, they come and go, so do their finances. Last edited by Shival at 14.04.2008, 16:58

(last year) #46 wNv\|VBadGirl

Quoting Satiini:

only kidding ;) doubt they have any documents even, just trying to scare elfi, but we all know there is no way in a million years hoorai would ever go to a real court with this matter and even if they did they wouldnt stand a chance of winning

They won't go to court and you know why? Because the ones who signed the contract were his parents not himself so.. case lost already.

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #50 hoorai.DDevil

Logic where?
It's the other way round: We would have failed if only Samuli would have signed the contract, but not his legal guardians, because he is underage. Luckily, we do not only have their signatures, but also elfi's own signature... case not lost yet.

(last year) #54 KPSatiini

gogo try taking it further, I wanna get good laughs of this shiet :D

(last year) #52 GravitasDav1oN

e-sports becomes more risky for pro players,but this soap operas makes me sick :-(

(last year) #53 vTMirhi

I hope this does go to court, I wonder how EU will handle E-Sports contracts. Here in the US, courts have not recognized these contracts as legally binding. (Unfortunately)

(last year) #55 lolxxx17984

"hoorai's manager Germany Lari 'D.Devil' Syrota has showed proofs from the bank that elfittaja has received every salary"

why not make them public ?

(last year) #57 hoorai.DDevil

Simply because we do not want the numbers to be published.

(last year) #59 vTMirhi

If you want to remove all doubt, you could blur the numbers, but show the transactions. Elfi was saying his payments were never received, if you can show that each payment was received (even if he claims they were not the full amount) you have shown his claim to be false. That is, if you are concerned with public opinion as much as a court of law. If you don't care about public opinion, you should stop posting, and just proceed to the courts.

(last year) #61 wNv\|VBadGirl

haha that's a pretty weak excuse to be honest. what numbers? arent they official? isnt Horrai a company registered at Commercial registration? with CUI and a J? (or whatever you guy have there). You can't possible think a simple bank's account number is private now ;D.

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #63 vTMirhi

I think he is refering to the payment amount, not to the bank account numbers.

(last year) #66 wNv\|VBadGirl

hmmm perhaps, but they arent secret either. They are declared at Comercial registration as long as Hoorai has to pay taxes right?? :D

All companies are divided in 2. 1.Micro organization (payer of TVA or not) and 2. Macro organization (payer of TVA or not)

I assume Hoorai is registered with an unique code and pays taxes to the German government.
If Hoorai is not not a company (organization) any contract they offer is simply void as they don't have any power to issue any.

I think it's very easy to menace a 17 old kid and hope it will scare him and a little harder to do what they say ;).

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #70 vTMirhi

There is such a thing as a contract between 2 individuals, regardless if one is an organization or not, and such a contract is still legally binding.

(last year) #75 wNv\|VBadGirl

yes true but he didnt do a contract with an individual but with an 'organization' called Hoorai so the binding you mention is non existent again because the person he did the contract with should sue him and not Hoorai. :} Oh man I love this law tangles you know ;). Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #56 OMFG_ITS_ROHIT

Stupid kid deserves to be spanked. GOGO hoorai!

(last year) #58 Meibas

This story is good but the comments here make it even better :) guessing is nice way xd

(last year) #60 wNv\|VBadGirl

Quoting DDevil:

Logic where?
It's the other way round: We would have failed if only Samuli would have signed the contract, but not his legal guardians, because he is underage. Luckily, we do not only have their signatures, but also elfi's own signature... case not lost yet.

Now I am getting really confused because Hoorai said initially the contract was signed by legal guardians (his parents) now they say they have both signatures?

In fact judging by law terms, his signature is void anyway since you said it yourself, he is underage. You cannot take him to court only based on that, unless u want to go juvenile court where the things are different ahhaha.

Also I suggest you guys figure out another solution because I think you have failed to fulfill contracts in the past , which will surface in an eventual process and which will tarnish your credibility and lose any process you might consider. That is if your case doesn't gets dismissed for calling to court the wrong person.

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #62 vTMirhi

That isn't quite how laws in most countries work. Even if Elfi's signature is void because he is a minor, having his signature states his intent to follow through with the contract, and that his parents did not force this upon him. His parents also consented to him fulfilling the contract. If in fact Hoorai did not breech the contract, Elfi will have little to stand on in court.

As to calling to court the wrong person, that won't matter, as they can serve summons for both his parents and him simutaneously, and either way the case will at least be heard.

(last year) #65 wNv\|VBadGirl

haha.. come on now.. his signature is void it doesnt states anything at all except he was present.

No, if you cite him to court.. the court will say you cited the wrong person as he is still a juvenile. If they want to take it at court of law they have to battle his parents not himself. the punishment will be issued for his parents and never for himself. as the court can't touch him being underage.

the only court that can is juvenile court where rules and ruling are different. haha.

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #68 Shival

As long as the parents sign, a contract is valid and as such you can go to court. There's nothing more to it than that. Although they will probably have to summon the parents instead of elfi, the outcome will affect elfi nonetheless.

Last edited by Shival at 14.04.2008, 23:17

(last year) #69 wNv\|VBadGirl

not really :). the parents will be affected not Elfi as he is underaged :).

Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #71 vTMirhi

I think you are missing the point. If Elfi's parents have to offer some remedy of law, or if Elfi decides to do a remedy of equity (finishing his contract), it will affect him either way. If they have to pay monetary damages because of their son, believe me, it will affect him =)

(last year) #74 wNv\|VBadGirl

as far as i see from hearing both sides Horrai wont do shit. and you can trust me on this. In esports 90% of teams contract dont even have law weight because the so called teams are not recognized as organizations(companies) which pay taxes based on their profit. By not paying taxes... the contracts they offer mean Zilch nada zero. Easy as that. They don't have solvability :}. Hold the S cause i'm an AINT.

(last year) #64 TargA10

I dont know how it is in the rest of the world, but when u turn 15 here u have the legal possibilty to sign a contract that legally binds u in a period of time, this is ofcourse if the money u get is enough to support urself.

(last year) #67 Mantraa

This may be a little "biased" coming from a kid himself, but if you think about it, when you sign a contract, it is set in stone. You can't blame this on him being a kid. Let's say that I was offered a place in some gosu team I really wanted to join, if I was already part of a commitments, I can't break it. It's somethings that people just aren't really taught anymore. Commitments are commitments and that won't change. It's really just I guess a lack of understanding on Elfi's part, and a coaxing from Gravitas. The way I see it is, Elfi is clueless because Gravitas said their lawyers would handle it. And the grounds that mainly holds Gravitas together in this statement is that Hoorai is not defined as a full-blown copyrighted group whereas many of the pro teams are. Regroup E-Sports, SK-Gaming, it's all been taken and settled in courts with full papers to back them. What Gravitas is saying is that Hoorai never did that. Now this could all be quite unlikely, but without full viewing of the contracts and the payment summaries, the public will probably only ever see the surface of this dispute. Really just a lack of honor is what it comes down to, promises are made not to be broken.

(last year) #72 freeze

Cant believe that some of you seems to think that he is only a "kid" that doesnt know any better... he's 17 ffs.

(last year) #73 DaiZel

Dont understand why its so hard to make a payment in time. Seems like all teams delay their salary payment ><

(last year) #76 iLjh

lol.

(last year) #77 MoonFly

bad for elfi

(last year) #78 xpr1mnt

Gravitas manager Zloy posted some information that Gravitas will clear the situation tomorow. Also he said that ESL didn't banned Elfi(dunno anything about G7 actions). It seems, that Hoorai will lose this battle.

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