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DotA

14th February 2008, 16:50

KS cleared from maphack issue

A rolling stone went through the community yesterday when KS was officially banned for maphacking from the MYM tournament. However, the decision has been now revised.

What happened?

Suspicious elements have been reported in a game this Monday, and an investigation crew has been formed to look into the matter.


Why the haste?


If a cheat has been reported, it must be investigated immediately. Especially if the team is still participating in the tournament and about to progress to the next or later stages.


What were the suspicious moments?


There were four suspicious moments in the game so far; 
  1. Selection of a hero in fog after a team fight by a dead player. ( papaxiong )
  2. Selection of a spectre after he disappeared in fog for the time he was shopping. ( mikebz )
  3. Selection of a venomancer after he disappeared in fog. ( mikebz )
  4. A POTM arrow which hit and stunned spectre in woods without any sight, knowledge of direction or any other indicators of the spectre being there. ( mikebz )

Were there any other reasons for suspicions?


The admin team was mostly suspicious of mikebz, since he was not playing with the other players from a LAN centre. He was the latest addition to KS roster, and 3 out of 4 suspicions were concerning his actions.

How did you investigate?


The crew has analyzed and watched the replay over and over again ( with the help of fast forwarding tools like www.gg-game.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=93992 ). The replay and the issues have been looked into so often that admins could even point out the suspicious seconds without looking at the replay.

Replays from followup games have been also analysed, but nothing suspicious was found.People from outside have been involved and asked for their opinion. That being IHCS admins, prior tournament admins, as well as professional and semi-professional DotA players.

What did you find out?


We have found out that there is a bug in WarCraft 3 replays, which keeps a unit selected even after it entered the fog - although the player who had it selected does not see it anymore.


What was the initial verdict?


The verdict was that there was no map-hack present from what we could see or prove.


Why was the initial verdict changed to a ban?


We have gathered new intel from GG-Game Client and Dota-League Anti Cheat developers which led us to believe that we made the wrong decision. The evidence was at that stage overwhelming ( selection while shopping, arrow into exact forest position without prior knowledge, checking up on hero items after hero was out of range ) and the input of people that seemed to be experts in that matter. Already explained evidence, has been rephrased as new in new cases - a mistake which should have never happened.

Issues with the process, which will be changed in the future


  • Too many people were involved who had nothing to do with it.
  • Not enough people were involved who had greater knowledge of the game engine. Particularly the creator of the map and the crew around him were important factors that should have been included in the process beforehand.
  • The haste. Although 1P kept quiet about this process, the growing number of people involved in the process, and the upcoming matches of the team forced us to make a fast decision.
  • Communication. Not being able to get in touch with KS based on timezones and them not having time for a longer conversation was unfortunate, especially with the time restraints.
  • Opinions of "experts", or what we believed would be experts have been taken for granted, while they were undecided or changed their own verdict afterwards.
  • The venomancer scene has been presented as 100% proof, since there was no view for the other team around that hero at that time ( according to screenshots and video ), that is however wrong as the scourge creep set has been just killed and provided the 'fade out' effect and the selection of a hero within 1 seconds afterwards.

Unnecessary public reactions


Racism - be it one or the other way. Several prides ago the administration was accused of hating Russian people, now it is about hating Asian people. With the next case we will most likely be racist towards a country of the next affected team. For once and for all : the team that is being judged against is seen as neutral, admins do not act upon nationality of teams, and have no agenda in doing so neither. Prime Defending lives from the versatility, of the inter nationality of participants - this was also a reason why Prime Nations was created. There is no point in racist remarks towards admins, and there is absolutely no point in racist accusations towards other people in the community!

Repeating or spamming of unproven facts or rumours to make the verdict invalid immediately. No, not all 5 KS members were playing from the LAN centre, and the red circle-issue also has nothing to do with a or b versions of WarCraft. Admins have been aware of most issues, and tested a lot of things before any verdict went out. This was not the first maphack investigation in the crew, and (unfortunately) won't be the last.

The slandering of KS in public comments and the opposing teams behavior were both unnecessary as it also transferred conversations into racist comments.


What will happen now?


The verdict is changed into "Innocent until proven guilty" - we cannot say anymore with 100% certainty that the players in question have maphacked. We can only raise suspicions. It is in our duty to apologise to the team and the players.

The affected players will be officially cleared and unbanned from both tournaments and KS will be able to proceed in the Prime Defending tournament in the playoffs stage to the next round.

A public apology from the myMYM Prime Defending administration towards KS.

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Comments (308)

 

Page :
(7 months ago)  #243 sniperzreborn
sniperzreborn
I guess the upcoming battles will be led by KS teams and eventually go on the top ladders of MyM by now. Good luck!
(7 months ago)  #244 yiran
 
Quoting Archi-_-:

They definitely failed, but that just happens. Let me just take the example with a soccer game. If a referee makes a wrong decision, this may influence the outcome of the game and it may even happen that this game is the world cup final. Things just happen, you have to forgive and give them a second chance. At least try to.


great example with the soccer, cause in the last world cup, a ref sent some1 off after the 3rd yellow card (aka he screwed up) and he was dismissed from duty, so we should listen to u and do the same no?
(7 months ago)  #246 EtoM_JehovA
EtoM_JehovA
I think that is a good news KS....New it is your turn to prove that there is no map-hacking 100%......gl
No matter what you have found..You'll allways miss something
(7 months ago)  #247 polyninja
 
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?
showtopic=204201&st=40


pls refer to post #52. It shows that MYM is maphacking against DOP (according to MYM definition of maphack). Now if u say that MYM did not maphack so does KS.

NOW! ON YOUR KNEES!!!
(7 months ago)  #248 xuscarm
 
It is pathetic and saddening to see MYM try to lick their wounds and try salvage their dignity in this manner.

Are they ignorant to the fact of how much more of an embarrassing legacy they are leaving behind by ending this case with an apology in this 'tone of voice'?

No doubt many are reading the mass spam and thinking "hey stop blaming the Admins" but take the time to think about the injustice caused here.

Not going into the topic of racism, it is clear that KS deserve more than this petty apology for the staggering amount of UNNECESSARY stress caused to them.
(7 months ago)  #265 myMYM|Phil
Phil
Of course not. Given the evidence and how everybody judged the evidence at the time being, the decission could only be guilty. No one that was asked about this were unclear.

And I'd like to point out that the admins aren't biased against Malaysians, aswell as they aren't biased against Russians or anyone else. So don't even go there.

I'm forever blowing bubbles!
(7 months ago)  #268 TAFWTFtrucks
 
How is it that it that your "anti-hack-elite-special-forces" didnt think of asking people that actually work with the wc3 game engine, and the coders of DotA? I mean, its not like it took very long time before the question were cleared (by example Naz).

Im not saying anything about racist admins at all, but from what I have heard (and correct me if I'm wrong), Snake is a real-life friend of 1P, and that he goes forward with handling a such serious matter - seems sooo unproffessional. I can see why 1P decides to tell Snake about this matter, because I would have wondered too, but imo he should have passed on the case to someone more 'neutral'.
Last edited by WTFtrucks at 15.02.2008, 10:39
(7 months ago)  #280 --sAviOr--
 
No offense but when u mean "everybody" does this include leaders like Drayich, Maelk and the almightly Naz? Obivously you have put up a very cloudy statement there as not "everybody" thought they were guilty. And if by "everybody" u meant the admin crew, then maybe you should start thinking about whats wrong with the crew in terms of decision making.
(7 months ago)  #282 myMYM|Phil
Phil
Everybody taken into account. Mind you that Naz were convinced about this one too :-)
I'm forever blowing bubbles!
(7 months ago)  #249 mymnecron
 
If ks really wanted to maphack, they would have in the previous pride and against XcN also in ADC and would have won 1500$.
Why would they risk their own name against a clan who are definitely not better than them.
Really stupid decision.
Also i have seen better apologies before.
(7 months ago)  #250 xuscarm
 
"I just want to point out that Kingsurf is currently looking for another big sponsor so that they can participate in LAN tournaments like Dreamhack. The statement that mym admin made regarding both the accuse and apology really hurt their reputation a lot.

From the statement that mym put on to clear KS's charges also doesn't make things clear for KS, it was more on defending themselves and diverting the attention by blaming the community for making racism comment. They need to realize that it was the mym admins or some community elder that sparks off the flame war."
(7 months ago)  #251 HK2proBeastlord
 
Dude that apology was extremely sad........ no kidding. I guess MYM Admins still dont understand the situation they have put KS in. Figures, all they did was defend themselves and state a lot of random bs such as "Innocent until proven guilty." Yawn, I'm starting to wonder if these admins are truthful about being all fair/just as they claim.
(7 months ago)  #252 donutmkb
 
today ks got 2 game. wish them good luck and do all the best. show them what malaysian can do. maphack thing was created by western people for western player. btw, i don like sirro :p
(7 months ago)  #253 8==D- - -blackshatan
 
Why don't you guys just drop it? The matter has been resolved, apart from the dogshit apology. Trying to bring down and accuse VP and MYM of maphacking is just stupid and you're just dropping yourselves down to the level of the 1P sore losers trying to claim a DQ win.
Quoting polyninja:

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?
showtopic=204201&st=40

pls refer to post #52. It shows that MYM is maphacking against DOP (according to MYM definition of maphack). Now if u say that MYM did not maphack so does KS.

NOW! ON YOUR KNEES!!!

This guy is a moron.
(7 months ago)  #254 VeryVerySorry
 
worst apology ever, mym admins=stuckups and a bunch of hypocrites

Bye suckers.
(7 months ago)  #255 N2Lfai988
 
Pls ban Snake. An apology MUST be made from Snake and Sirro themselves. Not from MyM. They are the one who sparks the whole matter.

Snake and Sirro, if you got the guts to accuse KS, PLS have the guts to make an public apology to KS. This is your mistake and you expect your clanmates to sweep the mess up huh?

Pulverise everybody in your path.
(7 months ago)  #256 NewbieFFect
 
This appology seprates the ks supporters to "not-a-good-one" and "let-it-go".
(7 months ago)  #257 oBztheCUTEduck
 
mymym started this big wooha and they close this quietly, whats is tis ?

its too late to apologise. =(
(7 months ago)  #258 sernchern
sernchern
This is obviously not an apology report. It is simply a secondary high school essay that started to ask WH question. WHY? What? HOW? lol.
(7 months ago)  #259 N2Lfai988
 
Pls mym, don't divert the blame stick against the community. We know you are trying to salvage some "useful" dignity. This inccident has a deep scar on KS. Why can't Snake and Sirro make a public apology?

And pls, I am not playing a racist card here.

If there's no apology by this end of the week, good luck to you mym. You rock.

Regards.

Pulverise everybody in your path.
(7 months ago)  #260 sthemo-cor3
emo-cor3
i bet $150 this topic is going to get #500

and to KS,u can really make a monies with this. sue them.

:)
(7 months ago)  #262 ahkiam
 
total 11 out of 1005 words did mentioned the means of apology...
and agree wif #258... really a joke...
refer to the news, i only saw MYM stated how great they handled the situation.
wtf, its like 1.09% of the news mentioned apology and 98.9% showing how expert they are....
Last edited by ahkiam at 15.02.2008, 09:35
(7 months ago)  #263 ahkiam
 
sorry Double Post
Last edited by ahkiam at 15.02.2008, 09:38
(7 months ago)  #264 dasty
 
Quoting genai:

so much bullshit from fanboys
really, fanboys are only racists here, because they are the ones turning it into asia vs europe thing

1. was some other team accused of MH cause of fishy things? no... asian team was, so asians were banned

2. so, zenith just continued to play even tho admin didnt want to save and lost... then whined cause it was laggy? no really, like they said, you contacted noone about it, you finished the game, and now want someone to fix it?

3. who cares if there was flood? and like admins said, you had "hard to schedule" game and local game with 1 hour diff, and you went for local... and then you didnt make it for hard to schedule game... you thought you are too good so you will finish in under 1 hour, bad luck... its not other teams fault you were late... its yours and only yours! dont cry for admins to fix it!
you risked of being late and made other timezone team wait till "bad time" for them, when you could just reschedule local game, its easy, same timezone... and then whined cause you didnt win fast enough... sheesh, im sure its cause you are asians

4. other teams have players from all over the world... but in their country lol! fach, merlini, and others... arent they playing for country they live in and not for country they come from?

just stop being stupid and stop being racist by asking admins to not enforce rules just because team is from asia
2 eu teams were late, they bot were kicked out of tournament... damn, they hate europeans!
sigh... fanboys are worst kind of people and give dota bad name

i hate teams and their fanboys who talk shit "everyone hates us"... its never their fault, for everything that happens, its everyones fault but theirs and everyone should bend over for them... cause if you dont, you are racist and hate them...

I seriously don't care whether you're as dumb as a mule or what, but whatever you've said here makes me laugh so hard. So you think that you're so high and mighty? So superior comparing to others who have supported Ks? For me, you just look like another pathetic poster. Yayaya, so much bullshit from the fanboys, but how about you? What you've posted here is utter crap and totally senseless. You just humiliated yourself with your own words, tough luck.

Let me point out your stupidity one by one.

1. I don't really understand what the hell are you thinking here. Just because a team is being accused of MH-ing doesn't means that they are MH-ing. Any team that plays against VP and MYM could claim that the two teams are playing MH, but that'll be so wrong as there are no proofs to support it. The situation is same here, so I don't understand what the hell are yout trying to brag here. Do you think with your ass rather than your brain? I don't know.

2. So you think Zenith really wanted to continue playing the game? You're so dumb. Please actually look into the replay before talking shit. Zenith was requesting for the game to be saved so that it could be loaded and played on another host, but the game simply couldn't be saved. With all these disadvantages against them, they wanted to remake the game, but ViP rejected it, because they wanted to take full advantage of the issue. So you want the Zenith players to leave the game halfway without the permission of the other team and the observers? Are you seriously so dumb? They would get an instant DQ for sure if this is what they did.

3. Sheesh, I'm sure because that you're a dumb ass so you think that a flood of that size wouldn't even had affected the schedule by a bit. Actually by now, I'm stunned by your dumbness. You seems to comes from another world. The flood had delayed the original schedule of theirs by more than an hour, and that made things tough for them. But a dumbass like you couldn't calculate the time well, I guess. So for you playing 2 games under the time of 2 hours is so easily done. And SKOTH is no local game. Kudos to you for being dumb and retarded yet again for saying out things without knowing much about it.

4. So what dumbass? The players of Hong Kong I know for sure doesn't lives in Hong Kong at the time of playing. Few players of Kazakhstan are playing in Russia too. I even have a statement from the Kazaks themselves saying that they are playing from Russia. Few players from Korea isn't living in Korea at the moment they're playing their games too. It's not like I'm wanting the teams mentioned to be banned, but the rules are just so dumb. Maybe you're dumber.

I hate dumb peoples that start posting shit without knowing much like you too, as much as your hatred for "fanboys" and teams who talks shit. You're the one who started talking shit here. And it's obvious that from your reply you're simply dumb and racist, although you're trying to claim that you aren't and that you're superior.
Sorry dude, you're just too dumb to be ignored.
(7 months ago)  #266 RESTINPEE
RESTINPEE
#264 your argumentation sounds pretty coherent with dumb ass in every line. Where did you learn those skills >.< ?
(7 months ago)  #267 MYM|Army
Army
This post shows the process of how the verdict has been created, what influences and decisions were done at that time when only a handful of people knew and had to decide about banning a top team from the tournament.

Does it defend the admins? No, as it also shows what mistakes were done and that we are aware of those ourselves.

Are we going to throw admins out for lynching to the public? No, since it was a team decision, we won't blame any individuals and we are going to handle admin related issues internally.

Do we blame the fans for anything? No, except those that have acted with unacceptable behavior like bringing racism into play or attacking individuals.

Are we sorry for what happened to KS? Yes, we are deeply sorry for what happened to them and KS has received a personal apology ( as already mentioned before ). We believe that rephrasing our public apology won't change the reaction much, as those people will simply jump on 'individual apologies' and then the 'lynching of people'. We are sorry for what has happened, end of story.
Last edited by Army at 15.02.2008, 10:32

pobudeczka na bacon i jajeczka
(7 months ago)  #270 Lxy
 
"We are sorry for what has happened."
Oh man that's the key sentence~!
(7 months ago)  #272 testing123
 
the things is that admins like snake made comments individually and publicly other than the decision which is obviously a team decision not just by 1 admin and i think it is only right that they apologize individually and publicly just how they said things against ks other than the team decision, anyways, that's just what i thought, but more importantly, im glad it's over... GL to ks and hopefully the admins have learn their lessons.. ^_^
(7 months ago)  #273 diskokungen
 
It's so hard to appologize. Maelk is more of a man than combined admin crew team. He's fair. Saying "innocent until proven guilty" suggests you're still finding it likely they hacked, and are looking into it, but you can't proove it. Now, that's a bit harsch at KS concidering they are JUST AS LIKELY TO HAVE MAPHACKED AS MYM OR VIP CONCIDERING THE EVIDENCE.
(7 months ago)  #269 BlackStar_
 
So much drama >.<
(7 months ago)  #274 apelsinlax