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18th November 2008, 19:00

The End Of WarCraft 3 teams?


The end of WarCraft 3 teams

 

WarCraft 3 has crept its way towards its peak in terms of popularity over the last few years, golden age began to shine and not even sky was the limit; players became stars, events offered higher and higher prize pools, the community became so large even the Chinese would say "w00t, that's many people", fans began to rise like a tidal wave, pushing motivation of teams such as MYM or SK to greater limits - or is it actually pushing likes of Grubby, Moon and Lyn to surpass themselves in each new tournament? Are you really interested in the teams or the players? And what's even more important is: are sponsors interested to support a single superstar who has the potential to win a couple of highly remunerated tournaments or a team with many average players which seldom wins anything - and if they win as a team, will the prize money be that low, such that not much is left for their employer? Winning a team league is not about money, but prestige!

To get an answer to these questions, let's start with a quick expedition (something like Columbus did back in the old days, with only difference being we'll be cruising around on the waves of this article...and we probably won't find a new continent anywhere around):

So let's begin our journey with China, a country where that new drug called "gaming" is not blamed to have a negative influence on their youth generation. A friend from Beijing just told me a few days ago: "WarCraft 3 is like so common here. I would venture a guess that in my office during lunch, at least 20 games of WarCraft 3 are going on!"

The general issue about RTS games

Well, that was a short trip to China, now let's move outside Asia and take a look at Europe where we have two major problems at the moment: Firstly, the RTS community lacks, compared to the FPS community, a strong and large fan base. Games like Counter-Strike always have much more fans - a quick note, fans are people that shed tears when their idols lose and throw bras on the stage when they win. While it might be flattering for the young Casanovas out there to receive women's underwear, it isn't the key reason as to why fans are good. Bottom and the most fruitful line is that more and more people are interested in buying the gear and mousepads their idols used to enhance their performance. Would companies like SteelSeries or Razer be able to become what they are and invest those huge amounts of money in eSports without FPS games? I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Before we continue - back to the bras thing, there is no filmed evidence of fans throwing such items so that was just a bold assumption, female rights protection groups if you wish to shoot me for that I can be your hostage and you'll be my terrorist but please don't take it to your hearts. Back to the topic, I wouldn't say that RTS is not an interesting genre for the sponsors, but if you are able to attract a possible audience of let's just say, 100 000 people on Steam that play Counter-Strike 1.6 at the same time and 'only' 40 000 people that play WarCraft 3 at the same time on Battle.net, the teams of which game would you choose to sponsor?

The situation in WarCraft 3

Some people like to play with guns, others prefer playing with heroes, so let's turn our minds back to WarCraft 3: Yes, we are in the year 2008 and things have changed in WarCraft 3. Where are all the European events? Where are all the new young talents? Where are the crowded Battle.net and Garena rooms? Where are all the fans that buy merchandise? Not that everything has gone bad, but as a matter of fact, less people play the game if you compare the Battle.net stats from this year and the last year. Fewer pages do WarCraft 3 coverage, fewer players get interviewed and less WarCraft 3 related news are written. Players like Rotterdam, and even ToD lately, started to do shoutcasts since they noticed this is a new way, which also happens to generate a healthy income, where they can make use of their outstanding knowledge of the game.

No NGL, no WC3L, no teams

More or less proven rumors confirmed that the NGL still owes a couple of teams thousands of Euros and can you remember for how long have we already waited to cheer at the NGL One Finals? Most likely we will never do that again! The NGL issue brings us to the other big team league: WC3L. For years this event was carried by the teams that participated in it, the teams that covered travel expenses for their protagonists to fly around the world and fight under their banners, or tags more precisely.

I hope you won't mind me slipping in here just one example: If SK or MYM had to fly their Koreans to Germany for the WC3L finals, the money spent for each flight would be about 700 Euro. 5 players x 700 would make it 3500 Euro. Add the salaries of the players, add the percentage of the prize money that players keep to themselves (around 80%) and then take a look at the actual prize money that is,

Rotterdam the shoutcaster

even for a first place, far less than 10,000 Euro. So, is there any sense for a team to play and attend such events if they lose more money than they make out of it? After all, eSports is business and it is all about the money!

One example wasn't good enough for you? Well it wasn't good enough for my fingers, either so I'll type you another one: Look at srs, the Rotterdam's team , just a few days ago they have announced their departure from all of the team events. It is quite likely a matter of time until they will release the whole team and keep only one or two key players.

Shouldn't we learn from Asian events, especially those from Korea that have been preaching us for years that events which feature individuals are the future, that those are the ones that attract viewers and sponsors? Wouldn't it make more sense for all those big teams to disband their whole team and stick with one or two players? Let them win all those "star player vs star player" events, and organizations like SK, MYM, mouz, mTw and Co. would be much happier.


The teams make the teamleagues

Team, or no team?

"I carry passion in what I do, and I can't stand to lose more fans. I have higher expectations, and with them comes a great responsibility towards winning," the biggest eSports idol ever, Boxer said this once. Not sure but he could probably say Spiderman's uncle (it was his uncle, right?) ripped off his line when he said "With great power comes a great responsibility." When you hear such words from the star players you realise they have this hard motivation, they are driven by their fans to sometimes go even beyond necessary to accomplish victories - though it is hard to have a team with five players that are all highly motivated in the same way. Furthermore, you won't ever find a team that consists of stars. You cannot make money with players as a brand if they all lack of that superstar status.

And yes, as what Korea has taught us, we need stars - they are the future of eSports! Tournaments which feature individuals attract more interest, especially in Asia, as they are the future of WarCraft 3; team leagues are dead. The question for organizations to have a team with two or more players will no longer need to be answered, it will soon be a fact that there is no reason to have large teams anymore.

Final question: Isn't it in overall a positive development that team competitions get less and less promoted? One vs one tournaments have all the excitement, they have all the tension, the action and yes, they have the stars (those shiny yellow dots you see in the sky at night, but during daylight they fall down and turn into progamers - there, another mistery solved - where do the stars go when dark is gone)!

 

 
Comments (119)

 

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(7 months ago)  #1 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
I am not going to lie and do not mean to offend anyone, but the whole invite-only tournament and the same players getting invited to the same tournament over and over leaving only 2 spots for qualified players is also discouraging to continue playing the game and having WC3 players. So what happens then, all the organizations are going to want to have only Grubby's, Moon's and Sky's and will pretty much not care about other young rising talents. Since they will most likely not get invited to any tournament while the others will just get invited because of their name.

Some players put in a lot of effort to qualify for an event to find out that the player he eliminate got invited just like that. Also single elimination and BO1 qualifiers are also not very good in my opinion. A player can drop just like that because the map doesn't favor his race but the other. The limited amount of qualifying slots also sucks a lot.

As for team leagues. I think that only the first and second team should have a spot in the leagues and the rest have to qualify again because then you only limit the amount of spots for 4 teams out of all the teams who try to qualify. Who says that Team Suxx can't eliminate nGize, MYM or GG from a qualification. I do not think anyone has the right to assume that until it actually happens.
Last edited by GenoZStriker at 18.11.2008, 19:23

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(7 months ago)  #2 sendohz
 
lol well written both of you
(7 months ago)  #3 4KFXythical
 
yes, Warcraft 3 is getting old, not? :-)
(7 months ago)  #4 RDAZEN
AZEN
DOTA>WC3
(7 months ago)  #6 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
Best joke of 2008 [x]
Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #11 4KFmatthe
matthe
People loose interest in Wc3 and more people get interested into DotA.... hm... Where is actually the joke?

And it becomes to be boooring to see the same strats every game a wc3 player plays...

╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #13 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
DotA is _always_ boring to watch. No matter what strat is being used. And people are dragged to it just because it's easy to master, unlike WC3.
Sponsors are more willing to support a game with more audience i.e. WC3 as it's not boring to watch....

Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #28 SirZ
SirZ
Actually I was a warcraft3 player, went to dota for a while becasuse warcraft was to hard. Now Dota is boring as solitare and I prefer warrcraft.
(7 months ago)  #50 Alisha
Alisha
lol you are a joke... seriously this is just ridiculous, how can you just put something on the table without knowing sh.

you don't even know how complex dota is, and talking that its easy to master unlike wc3? do you seriously think cs is easy to master too? just because you don't know the insight of the game and just see them running and shooting around?

oh please... dota is so complex you can't even explain it with few sentences. There are mass and mass strategies and tactics the same as with wc3, and now you will tell me, that dota has just 1 hero and what can be so hard with it? to control one hero? since wc3 has units and that needs a lot of micro yeah right.. and oh yeah dont forget the macro in wc3 and this and that.. oh cmon its the same with dota..

you know how many heroes there are? how many items? and itembuilds? strategies and tactics? each and every single hero has its own 4 skills, which always vary depends on what strategy you are going for, you need to skill them differently, each and every single hero needs its own itembuild and item combination out of xxx items, each hero needs its own playstyle (you cannot play rambo with every hero) support, gank, farm etc.

and this isn't all, every single hero is individually and needs to be adjusted to the others hero in the team, since there are 5players means 5 heroes, so there are xxx hero combinations, you just can't put just 5 strong heroes together, that won't work. and then again those 5 heroes needs to fit into the strategy and tactic the team is going for.. and sooo on. its not just about killing opponents hero.

then there is also -xl mode, where teams have to ban heroes out of the heropool and picking the left ones which again have to fit to the strategy. every team is trying to ban the heroes which for example they can't play against or to prevent that the oppo. team is going for a strategy which counters theirs. you need to know a lot about the game, the heroes, the items, the strategies etc. to even know how you should ban a single hero from the pool. and then there is the picking phase, where again a team is of course to try to pick the heroes which suits their strategy since you cannot just mix 5 heroes together. but then they have to pick so it isn't to obvious what they are going for else the oppo team can just outpick them... and so on.. i mean i'm not even a player and its already this complex.

this whole complexity attracts people, because there are soooo many ways to play just one single hero. and there are always new strategies and tactics, since for every single one being made/developed you have to think of a new counter one and so on. and everything varies from map version to map version.

I mean more and more multigaming teams/organisations are picking up dota and supporting it, more and more leagues and tournaments are growing with a serious pool of prizemoney.. and of course it needs time, you think everything can happen overnight? dota has already evolved so much and it is still growing and growing.

you think wc3/cs or whatsoever became big overnight? of course not. and stop blaming everything on the gamelenght and not spectator friendly etc. i agree that the gamelenght is definitely too long, but that doesn't mean that it is always boring to watch.

but maybe you should just find everything out yourself, cause its a shame how you talk about something you dont have a clue.

it's just about time until people notice and see the potential in dota.
(7 months ago)  #55 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
WOW! how complex......not!
Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #57 Alisha
Alisha
pathetic to be so ignorant at your age :/
(7 months ago)  #64 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
That marks the end of your reasoning ----> starting to talk like that
Last edited by Elven_Star at 19.11.2008, 18:24

Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #65 NFlag
NFlag
Dota is much more complex then warcraft 3 and if you don't believe this you dodn't know much about dota. I don't want to say that WC3 is not complex but in Dota there are so many ways to play and so many things what can happen etc.
Last edited by NFlag at 19.11.2008, 22:05
(7 months ago)  #99 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
Hahahaha i can't believe ur so stupid.
(7 months ago)  #111 mOnGoOsE_zA
mOnGoOsE_zA
Please stop trolling... Because your first sentence is probably the most ignorant one i've read in a while.
(7 months ago)  #73 4KFmatthe
matthe
<3 awesome
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #103 OMFG_ITS_ROHIT
 
This comment has been deactivated by the admin crew due to its content.
(7 months ago)  #106 Alisha
Alisha
This comment has been deactivated by the admin crew due to its content.
(7 months ago)  #107 OMFG_ITS_ROHIT
 
This comment has been deactivated by the admin crew due to its content.
(7 months ago)  #108 Alisha
Alisha
nopw starting with mum jokes, poor you. feeling so sorry for you qq
(7 months ago)  #85 shostakovich
 
DotA is the ultimate RTS game. Wait and see.
(7 months ago)  #5 Dendra
Dendra
wc3 progaming scene is kinda on level of amateur sc scene, with higher prizes though

for example sc progaming scene is based on both teams and stars, sadly sc outside korea cannot reach progaming level, not because of sponsors but because of pure skill difference.

saying cs is more interesting to the sponsors over rts titles might be true in euro/usa, but dont be mislead by it and think cs is "the cream of esports", it is a tiny rock on the huge mountain called korean sc scene, motherland of progaming.

with sc2 being released it should offer a noob friendly game, easy to learn and get good in fast for the majority of world's population so just like in wc3 we could see more balance there between koreans and non-koreans, that is the key problem of sc for example, two communities separated for eternity due to a huge gap in skill.

future of wc3 basically lies in sc2, once it gets balanced enough it will be the end of wc3, reasons are numerous and they lie in game mechanics, etc. WC3 is already losing players to dota and other games, progamers dont have the balls to switch to sc so they're rather waiting for sc2 to find new challenges, all in all the wc3 ship is sinking as it has nothing new to offer, game has been exploited and as #1 said - it gets boring seeing same names over and over again.

grubby&moon and co. are fun and everything but wc3 needs fresh blood, rotation at the top, etc., this way things are getting boring (in sc for example every year has several rotations, not many players manage to stay in top10 for a year, god forbid top3, new names always come and conquer everyone with yet again new style, unless the game offers endless freedom to a strategist it turns out into a nothing more but a mere mind game of using same strategies and same micro festivals)

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #7 DKMaelk
Maelk
DotA is the answer to a lot of the questions and points made in the article.

Sadly, most tournaments have a hard time spotting the possibilities of the game.

no re
(7 months ago)  #9 The1Crow
The1Crow
The biggest issue I see about DotA is the length of the games and that it doesn't bring enough action in form of entertainment for the viewers (as long as you don't shoutcast hehe)
Some ppl come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay ever!
(7 months ago)  #10 4KFmatthe
matthe
But this also depends on the DotA-Version you play... Atm it seems to be on the right way to top many other famous games...
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #12 losemann
losemann
if a dota match would take around 20 mins then it would be great. who wants to watch 50-70 mins for one match?

There are a lot of dota fans, but I am not.
we will see abou the team situation.

[www.losemann.asia] - my blog
(7 months ago)  #15 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
+1
Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #29 SirZ
SirZ
FPS>>>>>>DOTA
FPS>>>WAR3

simple
(7 months ago)  #14 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
The newest versions themselves are more action packed but regardless still last 1 hour.
Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #17 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
LOL not a direct solution to WC3 but ok.

"Sadly, most tournaments have a hard time spotting the possibilities of the game. "

Hehehehe so true. WCG thinks GH3,NFS,Halo3,VF5 > Dota. :/ in time it will come. Dota is on the good road atm.

Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #41 Publiplz
 
No, it isn't...DotA is another game!

(Well not even that. It's just a custom map. Another gametype anyway)
(7 months ago)  #8 imperator-xy
 
I guess most of the professional WC3 players and most of the WC3-fans won't ever play/watch DotA because it's just too simple.
My opinion.
(7 months ago)  #16 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
It's not because it's simple. Dota in general is fun to watch. It's just the length of it and the action (sometimes) that makes it hard to continue watching at the most.

Some games are very action packed but at one point you start wondering if it is ever going to end. Especially when you are talking about a BO3 series. Sometimes a team leads by 20-4 in kills. With more gold,xp and lvl they should finish it. But the game gets delay regardless of that for some reason. But the new version does a good job on making Dota more action packed but the length is still the same.

Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #18 vTMirhi
Mirhi
The problem with dota in entirety is the length. An average DOTA game takes between 40 and 60 minutes, an average Starcraft or Warcraft 3 game takes between 10 and 20 minutes. An epic WC3 game lasts no more than 35-40 minutes and some epic DOTA matches have taken between 2 and 3 hours.

The games can take too long for tournament play, and many people lose interest watching games that long. Even when I was playing DOTA at a top level, it was hard to make myself watch replays to plan strategies against other teams because it was just so boring to watch.

I was sitting in class the other day, and I was watching the VoDs of the Grubby v Moon final of WCG, and even the people around me that had never played WC3 were fascinated by it. It's definitely an interesting game to non-players, even if they don't fully understand it.

The difference between that and DOTA is that only DOTA players can really appreciate what is going on in DOTA.
(7 months ago)  #19 DKMaelk
Maelk
I admit, DotA's length has been troublesome ever since it's birth.

But the new version seems to have embraced a solution to this. I admit, I haven't done my homework and actually watched any of the official matches that has been played in the new version nor have I actually played any myself either. I have, however, played tonnes of practice wars in it, and in 9 out of 10 games, the game goes no further than the about the 30-minute mark. Some faster, some a tad longer.

As for the past problems with the picking time, that has also been addressed and to answer the last quote of Mirhi:
The difference between that and DOTA is that only DOTA players can really appreciate what is going on in DOTA.


I am sorry, but this goes for any game. For years I have found both WoW and regular WC3 to be profoundly boring to spectate. One of them, WoW in particular, I don't have the slightest clue of what is going on since I have never played the game, but in WC3 I actually do. However, a few weeks back I watched the stream of the ESL and guess what... I found WOW to be somewhat amusing. Not because of the game itself, but because of what every sport and every game needs in order to be entertaining: The casters.

If DotA had competent casters for the matches that are actually important and should prove interesting for the general public, then I promise you the game would be at least as funny to watch as WC3 and WoW, and possibly even as amazing an experience as Counter-Strike. The huge 5v5 clashes in DotA simply makes up for the time that goes inbetween them. And even then, there is still ganking, lanewars and so forth.

I am, of course, very biased on the matter.

no re
(7 months ago)  #25 4KFmatthe
matthe
Quoting Maelk:

. Not because of the game itself, but because of what every sport and every game needs in order to be entertaining: The casters.


So true... so fucking true. Casters are the guys which can make anything booooring really marvellous and interesting. Imagine you watch a football game or watch "Formula 1" without casters. It is boooring like hell. People want to hear other people "important" and "appreciated" experience while watching a match.

So whenever there is a good cast, the game will be for everyone interesting, it wont matter how boring the game is anymore!
I cant agree more on this.

But de facto we dont have enough casters to get casts to all games. Well.. we dont need casts to all, but to atleast the more important ones like finals etc., but they are often missing or arent available in english...
Last edited by matthe at 18.11.2008, 23:35

╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #31 apelsinlax
apelsinlax
Maelk: Check this DA thread out.

I dont know if you have seen it but it gave me something to really think about which is more than rare on DA. It brings up the problem that it is not rewarding to take down early towers (except with some specific strats ofcourse) or pushing in general. Even if you don't like any of the details on how to solve this I still think you will find the basic idea good.

Would be nice to hear what you have to say about.

(I am not selfpromoting, I have nothing to do with the thread)

TMM - The Moon Mob
(7 months ago)  #33 CdWSouless-Terror
 
I read the first bit of the thread (down to about where he started trying to give off the idea of strengthening towers and creeps). To me this thread looked like garbage written by someone who started playing dota about 6 months ago. Although I do agree length is one problem with Dota.

Those who started playing before or around the beginning of competitive play would know that games in the early days of competitive play were quite exciting. From Chen to the many mass stun line-ups, Dota had action throughout with kills occurring right from lvl 1 and continueing to occur throughout. The thing which has changed since the earlier exciting versions is that early gamers have been nerfed and late gamers buffed to the point that they can actually compete on lanes early game.

Players that are sponsored aren't gonna pick risky strats that have a 1 in 10 chance of winning, there going to pick most efficient strategies that have a low risk of failing. It was the imbalance of early gamers that forced teams to pick mainly 4 early gamers and one half or maybe full carry in earlier versions. In the earlier versions it was harder to push as well (towers had regen and didn't give much money). The other thing which made Dota exciting in earlier versions was blink dagger, even though seeing someone get away with almost no health seems frustrating to players its quite entertaining to watch.

Icefrog is working on making the game exciting. He's started by undoing some of the nerfs to blink dagger and hopefully he will continue by either strengthening early gamers and nerfing late gamers. One thing I hope he doesn't do is bring back imba creeps for chen, they were just bullshit and made games completely one sided.
Last edited by Souless-Terror at 19.11.2008, 02:19
(7 months ago)  #34 apelsinlax
apelsinlax
Yes. I know about the Dota history. Started playing in 5.6x and have followed the competitive scene since the only good CW you could watch was to download PLUG vs Kainin's clan.

Yes, alot in the post are not very useful or crap as you say. What seemed like the good main idea I was thinking of was that pushing should be more rewarded as soon as the game starts and thus making the game exciting from the start.

TMM - The Moon Mob
(7 months ago)  #42 4KFmatthe
matthe
Early game heroes >>> stronger. Late game heroes >>> weaker

In total it makes mid game heroes... so the game will end up in something like PVP at WoW... do you think this will be the best idea? A copy of another game?

╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #59 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
Yo Jacob..
I dont get why u spend so much time and efort to promote the game(way the go 4 ur efort)...
Imo the game will grow and itll become one of the top 3 in world....hell maybe it will surpass CS1.6....hope so...
Now i now alot of people will say this and that and that im mad or so but just listen what i have to say...
I have been playing SC after CS1.x then moved to WC3 and finally DotA and i found DotA most suitable for my way of thinking living ect ect, that is why i play it alot.
The best thing about DotA is that it doesnt require alot of skillzz and micro menagmet of the player but the one thing that it is the ultimate and it is the best compard to other games is that in Dota you get to use ur brain most of the time thinkig what combo of heroes u ll use as a result of ur opp picks and set of builds for ur heroes and the team strategi ull use....
SO THE UITIMATE DOTA EFECT THERE IS ONLY IN THAT GAME AND IN NO OTHER IS THAT U GET TO MINDGAME UR OPP AND USE UR BRAIN POWER AS MUCH AS ITSELF IT ALOWS U TO DO.... there for it is the best game imo and that is why i love it....
LITERALLY THE STRATEGIE GAME IS DOTA plus u have a team vs. team
that is ur IQ multiply or divided to 5 ect ect...
Last edited by Illidan_demonH at 19.11.2008, 15:46

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #70 MuGGLeS
 
This comment has been deactivated by the admin crew due to its content.
(7 months ago)  #71 MuGGLeS
 
yes dota game is fun to watch but not all are fun to watch freakin 50-60+ mins game. Only pro teams or lets say entertaining team such as Russians + SK. Sk may seems floppy but they are still fun to watch not sticking most played strategy like your team MYM.

no disrespect but your team seems a lil bit boring to watch since you guys stick to your gameplan or tactics. Go find entertaining heroes like the Russians does and asian also.
(7 months ago)  #20 dmZChiLLi
ChiLLi
wc3/dota > fps.

(in my opinion!)
(7 months ago)  #21 stef-
stef-
even cs has been come to a point where its just boring as hell to watch
and play.
god bless 1.5 times.

i watch a lot wc3 / dota replays .. the only ones that are interesting are either finals or matches where the players try something new out regardless of the length.
i prefer to watch an 30 min wc3 game than a 9 min one because they dont happen often.
I never played ANY serious wc3 match expect the strongly recommended singleplayer campagne few years ago ^^ however its still entertaining ..somehow..dota is different..depend on heros and strats both can be fun. watching a team tearing apart the opposite in 20mins totaly let them ff is as interesting as a 2hour game if its action packed however i think the length is the bad point everyone already talked about here :p especially for ppl who r new to dota .. since u can 8x the speed in replays to get rid of the boring early game in dota (farming only) its somewhat harder to make it more interesting if streamed..
Last edited by stef- at 18.11.2008, 22:22

pro
(7 months ago)  #22 Morgoth
Morgoth
Would you please stop glorifying the Korean esport scene without providing unbiased sources/(scientific) articles and hard evidence (facts & figures) to back it up?

And the "Korean(=asian) idolization" of individuals is not something you can easily achieve in Europe.
(7 months ago)  #24 The1Crow
The1Crow
Well, if you followed only a little bit the development of StarCraft and eSports in Korea, I would say that I don't need to give any proofs, facts or numbers about eSports in Korea. It is pretty obvious how big it is there. And Korea is not the main topic of that article but just a side kick.
I agree that it is hard to reach that superstar status like in Korea due to culture difference and acceptance of eSports and gaming within the society.

Some ppl come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay ever!
(7 months ago)  #30 Morgoth
Morgoth
Actually, I do follow the korean esport scene since ~2004. But none of the articles about korean esport, ever looked closer at the actual korean esport or backed it up with hard evidence. True, it's neither important nor apparent in your article (The article of evan(?) was going in the right direction, even if most of his conclusions were totally off and false). It was more a random rant directed at esports journalists, who just assume that what they hear from korea is "true and written in stone" (and yes I know about how many ppl visit matches/their wages/etc.)

Also, as far as I know, Tasteless mentioned in a cast that most korean starcraft progamers say that winning the ProLeague is the most important thing, as it's the best for their sponsors. Of course Korean teams don't have the same travel expenses and the actual prize pool is bigger, but so are their players' wages right?

Plus, companies have always had their "prestige objects". For example if you are a big company you will buy very expensive advertisement space in magazines with a high reputation, just to show others: "WE HAVE THE MONEY!" Another example how important "prestige objects are for companies is the fact that the "Axel Springer AG" invested ~20million DM over many years to be able to publish "Die Welt". Die Welt was their prestige project, something they didn't want to lose. Of course esport teams don't have the luxury/capital to do that too or at least not to that extend (It seems that today Warcraft 3 teams are more of a luxury item than a necessary good.)

I also think that if you remove yourself from leagues, the viewer won't identify themselves with a team anymore, but instead ONLY with the individual player, which then would mean that the team's brand (the thing they WANT and HAVE to sell) loses value and importance.
Last edited by Morgoth at 19.11.2008, 00:23
(7 months ago)  #32 The1Crow
The1Crow
OK I got your point. You know I am a guy who comes from the StarCraft scene, that is where my whole eSports interest and history started. I follow the SC scene for about 7 years I think. So I feel confident to talk about it, but in some way you are right and prolly an article about the development and the question why eSports could become so huge in Korea and in other countries not would be interesting. Did you read Boxers autobiography every? You should do it, it tells so much about that certain feeling that you can find only in Korea.

About the other things you mention. Also individuals can be 'prestige objects'. I know Beckham, but I don't care at all about his team.... but to come to eSport, right now I think that clanleagues don't pay out, even if they add that prestige value to a team that may attract sponsors, it is just not enough, the costs are still too high. Due to that I believe that teams will be gone very soon.

You point with identify yourself is a good one. That is for sure a big factor in ordinary sports, but seems it isn't in WarCraft 3 anymore at some point. Oh but, even a team with 2 super stars would still be a team in eSports right? :)

Some ppl come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay ever!
(7 months ago)  #36 Dendra
Dendra
if you follow sc scene u dont need analysis and some silly articles, your unbiased source is korea itself, president of korea trained starcraft to play with the "champion" :) its bigger than anything there and 1sc team easily earns more than whole wc3 scene together>.<

you dont need scientific articles to know how teams and players are looked upon, to know how they're living and how much they get payed, compared to progaming sc in korea literally every "pro" scene outside korea is a joke and i always found it funny how the tag progamers is given so easily when the gap between "real pros" and wannabe europeans&americans is huge, you think some tod or grubby could do anything in a sc environment?

training and skills needed to be good in sc, get to the top and stay there for a year is just unsurpassed in esports, koreans recognize that and thats why sc is so superior to other games there - whereas in europe we've got crybabies who like everything to be easy, they dont want to macro, multitask, nothing, just micro around with 1-2groups of units for the whole game, eventually even that became 2hard so they went to dota.

best example being sc2 where blizard is implementing hillarious ideas into the game, just to make it easier for those who dont get it what good overall game mechanics mean, people arent competitive, they are lazy, they dont want to play a game for 10years and achieve nothing, naturally thats why blizzard is trying to make things easier (again) to make sc2 more open to all people so that "everyone" can play like a pro with a little bit of effort.

by the way - as for your facts, likes of nada or boxer have probably earned more money on their own than entire cs/wc3/whatever scene together, not to mention the whole concept of "coach" is on a different level in korea, way of living, training,thinking, game simply demands more of you, as much as you can give - it will still ask for more, limits have not been reached yet, there are no ultimate strategies, ultimate unit combos, game changes year after year.

i sincerely hope sc2 becomes something like that, only in 3D version because it could unite whole world, only problem being - wc3 boys are used to their "progaming" scene, leagues, etc., i highly doubt sc progamers will waste their time on something silly as that, they'll rather stick to sc and true competitive environment, or if looking for some easy money - switch to sc2 and toy around with other rts gamers.



basically progaming scene should be stable and just look at wc3 scene, it's dying for the last 1-2years now, leagues are crumbling, etc., it's whole concept and organisation simply wasnt and isnt on the level of what i see as a progaming scene, yes perhaps the biggest problem is the distance...it's hard for a progaming scene to develope when you cant have proper offline leagues, proper offline tournaments etc., ive heard many times "progaming wc3 scene" having serious problems with lag - dont you find it funny that a few amateur starcraft players have overcome the lag problem, created a whole private ladder server, anti-hack program and many more, so how come something so big and large outside korea fails to confront problems such as lag?

quite amusing to see top layer of wc3 scene struggling with the problems that not even lowest levels of sc community have to struggle with for the last year or so - not to mention sc amateur scene is growing strong lately, connecting with korea more and more, meanwhile wc3 is slowly dying, as if it reached its limit (personaly i think one race hasnt been exploited enough in wc3, but to use its full potential...that would take skills)

so how can we talk about future of wc3 scene, team leagues, one on one leagues, etc. when only reason wc3 lived so long was money, game was hot...best 3D rts out there, large fanbase, it was easy for you guys in wc3, you got everything on a plate, well times are changing and i doubt you can take care of yourselves, seems not even the progaming scene has sanctionary against these rapid changes.

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #23 Udaibe
 
WC3 for ever. Every kid should play it in school as a subject.^^
(7 months ago)  #26 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
The WC3 scene just has to improve it's 1v1 tournaments or add more. Make better qualify and not invite to many or the same players over and over again. If nothing changes then we can all look forward to Starcraft 2.
Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #27 ohjeohje
ohjeohje
Quoting Maelk:

But the new version seems to have embraced a solution to this.


I think many have said this past versions, still problem is there (5-7 times after every patch lately)

But what could make DOTA shorter (competitive game)? Reduce towers HP and damage. Make item prizes cheaper, more creeps coming per lane, faster leveling, etc.

Its Mr. Replay manager to you ! *_* -Ohjeohje
(7 months ago)  #35 Maeka
Maeka
no comment :D
(7 months ago)  #37 Mantraa
 
TERRORISTS WIN: Hahaha
(7 months ago)  #38 Aoyos
Aoyos
I always found wc3 totally boring to play but amusing to watch,DotA is completely the opposite,funny )
An nescis mi filli?Quantilla sapientia mundus regatur...
(7 months ago)  #45 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
Maybe because you don't understand the game. If you knew something about war3 then you would think it's the best game ever to watch together with starcraft.
(7 months ago)  #39 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
World of Warcraft is the future of Competitive gaming. :/ even WCG has considered it a possibility for next year.
Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #40 Elven_Star
Elven_Star
Don't make us laugh plz. Seems like I should reconsider that "Best joke of 2008" thinige....
Elen sila lumenn omentilmo
(7 months ago)  #44 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
GenoZStriker on drugs --_--
(7 months ago)  #74 4KFmatthe
matthe
You play too much wow...
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #78 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
hehehe don't even have the game.
Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #82 4KFmatthe
matthe
Else you wouldnt write here =D confirmed
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #92 vTMirhi
Mirhi
I play WoW dude, let me tell you, as a WoW player, I can hardly tell what is going on in arena matches. Without combat log or scrolling combat text, or buff / debuff bars its retarded to watch WoW.

It's the worst spectator sport out there because only the players can really see wtf is happening
(7 months ago)  #43 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
Even if dota would have 20 minute games instead of 60 min or w/e, it would still be freakin boring to watch.
(7 months ago)  #46 abuseyoumerc
 
Quoting Dendra:

grubby&moon and co. are fun and everything but wc3 needs fresh blood, rotation at the top, etc., this way things are getting boring (in sc for example every year has several rotations, not many players manage to stay in top10 for a year, god forbid top3, new names always come and conquer everyone with yet again new style, unless the game offers endless freedom to a strategist it turns out into a nothing more but a mere mind game of using same strategies and same micro festivals)


I couldn't agree less actually. Do you really believe that SC has endless strategies? I've actually managed to watch and understand a bit of SC, but all those 'pro' matches had quite the same build as a 'pro' match in wc3.

In other words, the reason why there has not been a top 3 for more then 2 consecutive years is because of mixture of innovative players and more skill then the other guy. But the way you are suggesting it (imo) is that the differences in strategy are huge, but they are in fact, minor.

But isn't this the same thing we see in warcraft III pro matches?

Ofcourse there are lots of games who are roughly the same when played by pro's, the same strategies, build orders, etc. But sometimes there is a player who thinks, fuck this, im going to change it. And at pro level, this 'sometimes' means practically every week.

What use is a cooky cutter strategy against an opponent who knows your own playstyle better then you do? At that point, you start to innovate, innovate again, then innovate some more.

And that is the exact reason why some of the pro players in wc3 are still on top of their game, or refound the top of their game (moon 2006, grubby 2008) they practise every freaking hour of the game, just to improve that much, or change that much in a strategy to win.

As a last comment, I doubt you followed the wc3 scene at all, because in the last few years we've seen quite some new faces going 'pro'.

I did not know about some guy named 'who' couple of years ago, or Lyn.
And other players retire or can not connect to the top anymore like SK.madfrog.
(7 months ago)  #49 Dendra
Dendra
yes, wc3 was doing well...i never said it wasn't,i expected the game to last for 10years at least, but the problem is game itself limits the players 2much, you are forced to play by its rules simply because economy works that way and simply because some units just suck against other units, etc.

i know lyn was a surprise - but compare wc3 scene before and now, players like grubby or moon have been on the top for a long time now, in general you dont see heroes rise and fall....for example in sc there was a guy who owned everyone for a whole year, almost had 100% winning percentage in proleagues, next year he dropped to the B team of his progaming team. there is only one guy who stayed in top3 rankings for several years but now its getting harder and harder to do so because game mechanics are improving so much

well ok, i cant tell you what is changing exactly, because i cant understand the progamers, not even after 5years of starcraft, looking at sc for some time might make you think its not that hard to learn compared to wc3 - but just try doing the same build order with same timings, you wont understand wtf you're doing and why are you slower than that guy, and that's how it will be for first 1-2years of your starcraft gaming, and then you'll realise you know nothing,re-learn all build orders, maybe get to higher amateur divisions, see you're getting owned for no reason by top class foreigners, maybe you'll play 24/7 and become able to beat top foreigners, maybe even become one - and then you'll realise you have learned 30% of starcraft at best, if you're really good, thus concluding progaming career is simply unreachable and takes 2much time.

because of that i guess sc isnt popular among new players, because in order to play the game you must master the game mechanics, over and over again, what good is your brain and smart moves when the other guy has 10x more units and the whole map control - in the same manner sc is quite brutal game when players of equal game mechanics knowledge play against each other, because the ways to humilliate, torture, play tricks on, do bluffs and fake build orders, scare your enemy, etc. are just endless


back to warcraft3: for example guerilla strategies,ways to counter a strategy, etc. all has its limits. the game spins around heroes and 1-2groups of units, your screen is fixed on those during the whole match - yes its fun to watch, i remember watching 30min reps and thinking wtf didnt just 5min pass since i started this one?

also about strategies you say that are all the time the same - in wc3 time needed to learn/perfect build orders is much less and base management is much easier, in general wc3 doesnt force the player to focus on every freaking detail but tries to make everything run smoothly with minimum trouble, giving you enough time to focus on microing battles 24/7 or playing a mind game with your enemy, will i put my army here, or there, hm....

basically i wont list you the reasons why sc is lightyears away in terms of how much you need to train to be a top class player, currently im just enjoying the fact that after over 10years people still make completely new build orders, unit combinations, units usage and more importantly discover new tricks in the game - its funny because everything they discovered just now has been in the game ever since it was made, makes you realise just how many things there are to explore just within the game itself (unit bugs, etc. - well not bugs but details that can be exploited using certain keys, etc.)

anyway, warcraft3 has an interesting concept, its the reason why the game is so fun to play and became so popular, sadly dota seems to have taken that concept and minimized it, game would be shallow but the team play and coordination required makes it deep enough to challenge the players, well teams actually. i personaly hope dota doesnt see the light of esports or god forbid events such as wcg, in order to do so it has to become a game, or at least it should see a transition just like it was from half-life to cs, it was a great thing for esports, if dota manages to do the same...

oh and yes, there are more reasons to fear for the future of warcraft 3 progaming scene - blizzard is entirely focused on pushing wow into the esports, when it comes to rts it will push sc2, hell evend diablo is on horizon - basically blizzard will completely forget wc3 as it is an outdated game, just like wc2 was, if wc3 progaming scene is strong enough it will survive - but with teams disbanding and players being ready to switch games how much time for wc3 is really left?

first of all progaming cannot survive on blizzard's servers, if many pro matches are played over net you need to fix the lag, etc., not to mention hackers will appear more and more often, with blizzard doing absolutely nothing to stop them, this will force amateurs to quit wc3, community will crumble - you can accept defeat or learn from sc and create private servers where you will have complete control of how the game works, fixing latency,catching hackers, implementing dozens of useful tools, etc.

making a "progaming server" could make things better, sure even in sc you still have lag problems sometimes when playing against chinese/etc. but the majority of games played now are done so on zero latency, environment same as the lan... reminds me of garena, hamachi, etc. - imo a private server gives you more control than garena and such programs

well in the end, best way to make wc3 pro scene survive is to gather top teams,put them all in one country, make them live in their team houses, play hot proleagues, etc., basically you'd have to do what korea has done, but i think its impossible to find someone willing to invest so much money in wc3, especially now when new RTS titles are coming - im not saying having a proleague in that manner wouldnt be profitable, tv shows, broadcasting of the leagues, sponsors, if it would be huge enough then it would be great, but that's something wc3 should've done while it was still hot.

it was easy to call yourself a progamer when blizzard looked after you,sponsors swarmed you, offline events offered huge prize pools, it didnt take much effort to make a wc3 progaming scene (compared to for example sc progaming scene and what it took to create it), i guess now those pieces are falling apart and you're starting to realise what your progaming was based on,so what -now all that will remain is 10players battling against each other in offline tournaments because thats all their teams can pay for, fun fun

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #63 The1Crow
The1Crow
amen
Some ppl come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay ever!
(7 months ago)  #47 VpMrOw
MrOw
World Of Warcraft

THE BEST GAME EVER CREATED

GeeGee

I <3 Calvin Harris!!! One More Tune!!!
(7 months ago)  #58 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
The best game human to human can play is chess....
WoW is total crap money makeing thing for blizard, i remember that right after wc3 was relised they anounced they are near to bancrot and they manage to pull of WoW as an idea but in fact now there are lots of servers meaning the whole thing as an idea of whole people in one game is crap and bullshit...
Now days Blizard is the bigest moneymakeing gameing studio and they will relise SC2 in three epizodes why i ask my self, the oficial response was j to have better gamer experience crap crap crap, after every man finishes the campain he goes lan games and skirmishes with another human....
The purpose of the game is to be played with other people i dont give a damn about the campain ect ect... that is why i hate WoW it is money makeing thing get the point or....Go pay 15 $ month and ....

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #75 4KFmatthe
matthe
There is one game better than chess, called Go :D It is really easy to understand but far more complicated than chess at high level. In chess pro players think 50 ways forward, at go more than 200^^
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #77 [SLO]Heldarion
Heldarion
don't exaggerate, in chess the best players see 2 or 3 moves ahead, some 4 or 5.
Raul Capablanca who was undefeated for 10 years said "I only see 1 move ahead but it's always the best one."
(7 months ago)  #81 4KFmatthe
matthe
o_O Dude, this is not true. When Chess masters play vs eachother, they allready planned the whole game in their head before they started to play. They have a strategy they follow like at Wc3. You start with something and try to surprise the enemy in the following moves and read the enemy movement.
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #83 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
I ll take any of u in chess game ...
Btw the best chess player is and always will be Gary (the american spy bitch) Kasparov"lov" i typed like this so he could not sue me...And they think as much moves ahead as they need to realize that that present move where leads them toward good or bad position ect ect, sometimes even more than 20 moves which is very dificult cos as further more u see the moves go on as a tree with brunches...
Also to mention that in Chess the number of games u can play is not infinite but it can be calculated u j need far to powerfull pc for that which we dont have now, so in future Computers will be like gods in chess playing with people...And also if we somehow made that kind of PC and we put him to play against the same PC the game will always and in draw.
Ill check this Go game matthe thanks for replying...
DotA there fore it alows u to use ur brain as much as u can as many times u can anywhere on the map and u get to multyplie that by 5 or devide that by 5 that is why DotA gives u more adrenalin rush in some moments as for in other games such as SC and WC3 there is not much tenzion cos ur brain usage is not that kind of creative it all leads to choseing right strategie by spying ur opp buld right set of heroes and ofc best micromenagment ect ect as for DotA it is all down to ur brain power and mental mindgame to win ur battles and opp something like chess but 5 timesmore thriling...
DotA for life...(no need to shorten the game, 40 min is perfect imo...) just try to promote it with more online tv and show men casters...

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #118 Dendra
Dendra
hehe on the chess subject - alekhine is my personal fav, havent played chess in a long time, damn even forgot some of the names so i hope i got it right.

anyway - chess hasnt evolved a single bit for a very long time, i believe it is the superior game in its "genre" just as sc is superior in RTS, for example sc might not be as strategical as chess but the impressive part is doing 10 or more tasks at "same time", aka making priorities and best orders in which to do each thing, at the same time keeping an eye on your opponent and coming up with brilliant ideas - the 1st big step in sc is when you start to think while you play, and im not talking about playing like a granny against your best friend but really playing the game. many times ive seen people watch replays of their games and say "oh damn, if i did x in that moment...if i watched that place...why didnt i build this now...."

thats the difference between 1st stage of sc (so to say) and your 1st step into the real sc gaming - being able to do many things at the same time and not forgetting to think. it can be little things, changing the position of your army, hiding a unit, sending a scout, etc.

basically one thing i love about sc is the fact that you cant see the battlefield, you have to reveal the battlefield, big part of the game spins around that and games are often decided just because someone managed to hide his plans well or someone found a way to see his enemy's plans.

in chess you see the whole board, after playing it for a long time you can figure out possible solutions for every situation, so basically you dont have any problems with "scouting the board" but what makes chess difficult are the branches, so many ways to change the course of game, sc would be an easy game if it was wide open as chess because build orders arent as flexible and there arent that many build orders.

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #84 [SLO]Heldarion
Heldarion
trust me it is true. They simply don't see 50 moves ahead, I've a friend who studied chess a lot and he ain't bullshitting, since 50 moves ahead is often a full game actually :D
(7 months ago)  #86 4KFmatthe
matthe
But the chess pros prepare themselves before any match to have a winning strat that will lead them to win. They can switch it during the game but they have something in mind they want to do.

"I only see 1 move ahead but it's always the best one."
I guess this was ironic...

╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #87 [SLO]Heldarion
Heldarion
It wasn't ironic I'm pretty sure about that. I dunno if they prepare any special strategy, but just try it yourself. Try thinking about your AND opponent's next 5 moves, how's gonna react, the position on the board etc. You've got to have a goddamn good prediction to pull that off, especially if opponent is unpredictable.
(7 months ago)  #89 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
I am a chess player i have a buch reithing of 2300 and i used to play official tournaments i j didnt plaeyd 20 of them so that i can have my reithing official and dude chill ok Helda as much as i respect u u need to chill seriosly!!!
Further more moves u can see it is call combinatorica science than ull be more and more better chess player,
to explain my self, as pro chess player they say u need to know literature because i get to study oppenings from old books of famous pioneers in chess such as lasker rety cpa steniz and others,
that will help u to sufvive the first 10 to 15 moves after that u need to see in advance which brings u in the upper thing i write, after 10 to 20 more moves around 30 to 40th move u evaluate ur position as often as u can and u must find some weekness of ur opp to exploit or u come to realize thet u have bad position and u fight to draw or hell not to lose wich leads u to the end game wich normaly for pro is only execution of their previous moves and exploit...
So as i said as much as moves ucan calculate more better ull get wich leads to ur brain power overal...

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #90 [SLO]Heldarion
Heldarion
somehow knowing opening moves by heart doesnt equal seeing 20 moves ahead to me ;)
(7 months ago)  #91 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
ok form move 1 to 15 u do memory with ur opp, who remembers openings better, from 15 to 30-40th move u must see in advance cos those moves u cant find in any book get it?
after that come evaluation of ur position and the chances u have in ur game, ether u continue for win or offer draw or even tumble ur king...

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #93 [SLO]Heldarion
Heldarion
yeah, but from 15 to 30-40 you can make a general plan but that doesn't equal you're gonna predict all the moves and that's what I had in mind, I'm not saying you can't make a general plan for finishing the game, that would be just stupid.
(7 months ago)  #48 FaetoN
FaetoN
WarCraft III the Best ^_^
(7 months ago)  #51 Lun-
 
warcraft 3's future is in china now. True that solo tournaments attracted more popularity. The only running team tournament that is wc3l? ngl seems dead right now. :/
(7 months ago)  #52 abuseyoumerc
 
I will try to respond when im back from work dendra, but you say a lot of truth in this post. ill try to highlight them out, if not it will be tommorow in the midday :)
(7 months ago)  #60 Dendra
Dendra
well i try to open debates, make you write your own arguments. i wouldnt be writing any of this if i didnt stand behind it, my opinion can be biased because i played sc more than wc3 but one thing i'll always do is pick the side i think is right - even if it means going against starcraft.

comparison of wc3 to sc isnt that relevant here, im mostly concerned here about future of wc3 community, not just the progaming scene. only reason i say wc3 should learn from sc is because it is successful at surviving on its own for a very long time now - in comparison wc2/diablo2/etc. arent doing so well, they lack something which wc3 has, meaning you have good chances of surviving if you organise well, wc3 will remain the only strategy with a "micro oriented concept", sc2 is again focused alot more on multitasking and being on 30sides at same time, rather than focusing on 30things on a single screen. in that way wc3 will always be different from other rts and there will always be people who will prefer it over games such as sc.

imo biggest problem with pc games is that it shouldnt be any longer about replacing old titles, being competitive on the market, getting new customers, before it was all about who will make a new game with better graphics or original concept, it was a competition between companies, but now...

we are making a foundation of esports. games like cs 1.5, wc3, sc shouldnt ever be replaced, they are good the way they are, they shouldnt fear about surviving the new titles, sure world goes on, rest of the world can play fun games, but the core of esports, those hardcore competitive games should have more stability. well ok this is a huge topic, not possible to go into it in a single post.

there are dozens of problems, games played on wcg arent based on skills but on their creators, microsoft keeps pushing its crappy RTS titles on wcg simply because money makes everything possible, we're seeing games like guitar hero becoming an "esport", there are no specifications, only thing required is money,

i mean there is a clear line which sports belong to the olympics, which to the extreme sports, which to the recreational sports, etc., where is that line in esports? it's pretty much a jungle out there, there are plenty sports which bring alot of money but you dont see them at the olympics, people think progaming is a profitable way of life - lets get real, only the best professional athletes actually earn good money.

basically there are just too many topics to open here - for example the progamers' way of life - dedicating 12+ hours per day for practicising, rest of the time resting/eating/sleeping, that's one of the problems - it's easy to train "hardcore" and be dedicated in pc games, your body gets adjusted fast and you think you're some athlete, in top shape because you can handle staring at the screen for so long? you know nothing about pain, pushing yourself to limits, not to mention your mental strength is pathetic probably, you'd crack after doing just one real training in any "real sport".

again here i must say no professional sport is healthy, so from that aspect sitting most of your days isnt healthy but at least you wont need surgeries, etc. anyway there is much to go for esports, it needs to be defined, xxx games belong to the "olympics", xxx are simply an esport, xxx are casual games and so on, since the way of life is different eventually all games will have to accept the concept which is working quite well in korea, just too many things to talk about here :)

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #53 toCuws
 
The article was very interesting and had a lot of valid points - enough to make most wc3l fans worry.
But seriously... this community is a joke. The comment sections and forum threads always suck 'cus it turns into that annoying-as-hell Dendra guy talking about SC and some random chit chat about dota. Dendra is on a never-ending, no life crusade against all that is not sc. It's f'ing pathetic, and I wouldn't be surprised if mymym was loosing traffic because of him.

That aside, I have to say I don't visit mymym that often, but when I do I'm always surprised by the quality of crow's work.
Last edited by toCuws at 19.11.2008, 14:00
(7 months ago)  #54 DaiZel
DaiZel
I think there is no problem if the management can handle the budget well. If you want to compete in the top you need to be aware that it will be a lot of money efforts.
(7 months ago)  #56 Loroo
Loroo
i m with Maelk,azen and dendra... Dota Imba.
(7 months ago)  #61 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
me 2
100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #67 Kamatz
Kamatz
and me;;
The whole thing I think is shit.
(7 months ago)  #62 Antidoto
 
Great article, great points and many valid comments, but personally I think that wc3 survival relies on the Chinese community, China can become for wc3 what Korea is for sc, so it all depends on what China can/will do for the game/gamers/teams, and knowing them, how crazy they are for the game, I'm pretty SURE they won't just let the game die, maybe everyone will have to move to China, who knows what the future for wc3 holds, what I know "wc3 has been dead for 3 years alrdy" it's what a lot of people has been proclaiming, and oh, ALL of them had valid points, on the contrary though, wc3 seems to have reached its peak, the game right now is by far better than in the past, conclusion? WHO KNOWS!
(7 months ago)  #66 abuseyoumerc
 
Quoting Dendra:

well i try to open debates, make you write your own arguments. i wouldnt be writing any of this if i didnt stand behind it, my opinion can be biased because i played sc more than wc3 but one thing i'll always do is pick the side i think is right - even if it means going against starcraft.


Same for me, with the exception that im more biased for wc3 :)

Quoting Dendra:

comparison of wc3 to sc isnt that relevant here, im mostly concerned here about future of wc3 community, not just the progaming scene. only reason i say wc3 should learn from sc is because it is successful at surviving on its own for a very long time now - in comparison wc2/diablo2/etc. arent doing so well, they lack something which wc3 has, meaning you have good chances of surviving if you organise well, wc3 will remain the only strategy with a "micro oriented concept", sc2 is again focused alot more on multitasking and being on 30sides at same time, rather than focusing on 30things on a single screen. in that way wc3 will always be different from other rts and there will always be people who will prefer it over games such as sc.


I agree, but the normal wc3 community WILL die in a short time, and I think the sc community will also (im not talking about the progamers atm). The reason why? SC2

2 possible outcomes: 1. SC2 Rocks and pull some progamers from SC and wc3 to the game, thus meaning both games will die slowly

outcome 2. SC2 sux and players either switch back to play their 'old' games or buy new ones, the latter ofcourse meaning that the communities are still dead.

Quoting Dendra:

imo biggest problem with pc games is that it shouldnt be any longer about replacing old titles, being competitive on the market, getting new customers, before it was all about who will make a new game with better graphics or original concept, it was a competition between companies, but now....


True, but how do you think these games where created in the first place? companies like EA and Blizzard NEED to innovate, their income does not come from a handfull of progamers, but from a large base of players who play for fun and buy the game for fun.

On the other hand, I dont know why you say there is not competition amongst the companies who create games. I mean, if they dont have competition they will make crappy games and lose costumers to the other one making crappy games, and they will lose costumers. If that sounds stupid, thats because it is. Bottom line, if I where to buy a sucky game from gaming company X, then switch to buy a sucky game from gaming company Y. hell I would buy a good game from gaming company QQ. (Plx understand ^^ I can explain this much easier but I like this wierd explenation) :P


Quoting Dendra:

we are making a foundation of esports. games like cs 1.5, wc3, sc shouldnt ever be replaced, they are good the way they are, they shouldnt fear about surviving the new titles, sure world goes on, rest of the world can play fun games, but the core of esports, those hardcore competitive games should have more stability. well ok this is a huge topic, not possible to go into it in a single post.


Again, I doubt this statement, sure a game is good, but when it dies, it dies.
If there where to be a far superior game to wc3 I will switch to that, if the majority of players will do that, and the game is happily viewed by outsiders(fans if u will) this can become the new esport title for many years to come, untill it will be replaced by a new superior game.

But sure it would be fun to see my son/daughter play wc3 going crazy on some guy named 'grubby2020' or 'moonrevisited' XD

Quoting Dendra:

there are dozens of problems, games played on wcg arent based on skills but on their creators, microsoft keeps pushing its crappy RTS titles on wcg simply because money makes everything possible, we're seeing games like guitar hero becoming an "esport", there are no specifications, only thing required is money,


I couldn't agree more on the guitar hero thing, I was actually SCHOCKED to see that game on the list :)

Quoting Dendra:

i mean there is a clear line which sports belong to the olympics, which to the extreme sports, which to the recreational sports, etc., where is that line in esports? it's pretty much a jungle out there, there are plenty sports which bring alot of money but you dont see them at the olympics, people think progaming is a profitable way of life - lets get real, only the best professional athletes actually earn good money.


Yup

Quoting Dendra:

basically there are just too many topics to open here - for example the progamers' way of life - dedicating 12+ hours per day for practicising, rest of the time resting/eating/sleeping, that's one of the problems - it's easy to train "hardcore" and be dedicated in pc games, your body gets adjusted fast and you think you're some athlete, in top shape because you can handle staring at the screen for so long? you know nothing about pain, pushing yourself to limits, not to mention your mental strength is pathetic probably, you'd crack after doing just one real training in any "real sport".


Altough I agree on the physical part, I really think these pro gamers are mentally very strong. They have to handly presure from thousands of fans, they have to play on TV for thousands of fans, they have to put up good results or they get 'fired' from their teams.

I could go on about pro gamers but the bottom line is not as simple as it looks, otherwise, wouldn't we all be progamers?

Quoting Dendra:

again here i must say no professional sport is healthy, so from that aspect sitting most of your days isnt healthy but at least you wont need surgeries, etc. anyway there is much to go for esports, it needs to be defined, xxx games belong to the "olympics", xxx are simply an esport, xxx are casual games and so on, since the way of life is different eventually all games will have to accept the concept which is working quite well in korea, just too many things to talk about here :)


Agree :)
(7 months ago)  #68 Dendra
Dendra
talking about companies producing new games - i was trying to say how "esport titles" shouldnt be produced in an environment where companies try to satisfy the desires of their customers, by that i mean the larger part of the population which casually plays for the pure fun of it, the issue can be seen in sc2 - it has gone to such extent that many people want sc2 to have an amateur and pro version, pro version naturally having no auto-mining, etc.

if you ask me both cs 1.6, wc3 and sc deserve to be immortal, core parts of the esports, i mean sure if a new title with similiar concept is better for the gamers/audience then replace the old title, but in general i dont see a reason why for example sc2 should replace sc, as they are two very different games with only connection being on the storyline, some units, some build orders, etc.

i mean nobody tries to create a better chess, it is good the way it is, in the same manner there should be games that will always be the part of esports - personally the difference between chess and "actual sports" is just as shocking as the difference between sports and esports, it is a giant leap towards a whole new generation of "athletes".

related to it - yes, i agree you need to be mentally strong to handle the pressure of the audience when playing offline, athletes have to overcome that pressure2, i was more refering to the physical aspect of their training as pretty much not a single esport star can handle the pain, mind simply isnt used to it, being able to push the body over its limits. it's another topic and not that relevant, i mentioned it more because of the way how pro athletes live and how progamers live.

it is pretty much as if you have to choose between freedom and progaming, i know for a fact some progamers have spent like 2-3days playing constantly before a tournament, thats the problem i was pointing at - there is no limit to the amount of training a progamer can do, body can handle pretty well playing for hours in row, obviusly even days. we cant solve that problem and say "all pros can train xxx hours per day", if you want to have time for your family etc. you'll train less, if you want to be the best - you'll train 24/7, live and breath the game, having nothing else in your sight. such a way of life is really going to the extremes, maybe cs/wc3/etc. gamers can afford being more casual but in sc this weak point of esports really shines - nonkoreans dont play 24/7, koreans play 24/7, skill gap becomes too great,

whereas in for example wc3 you can see guys like creolophus doing great and being occupied with college or whatever, to be among the best you dont need to play 24/7, if you understand the game you can perform well, whereas slacking in sc is deadly as the game mechanics are so brutal you simply cant allow yourself to relax - you can understand the game, but if the other guy has superior multitasking etc. you're doomed, he'll simply be too fast for you. exception being boxer and his gay cheese lame rushes which cheat-win everyone (god i hate him :D)

anyway im bit sleepy to wander off into another chapter of this post :D ty for the reply, i think this is the 1st time someone took his time to read and reply to my epic posts :DDD

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #69 VpMrOw
MrOw
sigh...why wont people evolve with their gaming tastes?

ok i started with sc and i loved it

moved onto wc3 when i got bored with the same shit and gfx

liked wc3 alot and kinda became average good at it then stopped playing cuz i got bored again...

went on garena to play dota and had a lot of fun and wasted countless hours but it was fun...

then i bought wow battlechest on an impulsive shopping trip and played for 2 hours and cant stop playing...

dont think i'll try sc2 or d3...wotlk is doing fine for me...im a FireBALLING M A G E nukkah

oh of course i have med practice tests and my love of travelling to attend to...

people move on -.-

I <3 Calvin Harris!!! One More Tune!!!
(7 months ago)  #100 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
Wow is for chix
(7 months ago)  #102 VpMrOw
MrOw
so's dota in the eyes of wc3 nerds

so's wc3 in the eyes of sc nerds

wuts ur point?

I <3 Calvin Harris!!! One More Tune!!!
(7 months ago)  #105 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
my point is that wow is for gurls
(7 months ago)  #109 VpMrOw
MrOw
tell that to 11million ppl...
I <3 Calvin Harris!!! One More Tune!!!
(7 months ago)  #110 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
11 million retarded fucking idiots

and ye ive told em
(7 months ago)  #72 __LoG
 
i dont think so...

Dota > WC3...wtf???
(7 months ago)  #76 4KFmatthe
matthe
You got it =D
╦╦╦╦╦╦╦ The fence of the Ancients ╦╦╦╦╦╦╦
(7 months ago)  #79 Hereticeighteen
Hereticeighteen
I like to think that WC3 is highly similar to Chess! It's extremely difficult to master, with lots of variables and not meant for everybody! I can't think how people say that DotA > WC3 or the other way around, both are excellent games (I know it's biased, I play them both, but anyway...), the thing is that the evolution of DotA as a game is much faster than WC3's at the moment... DotA is still growing, while WC3 isn't. DotA is nearly limitless, while WC3 is. Almost all WC3's possible strategies (again, like Chess) have been discovered and thought of, when in DotA innovation is possible and it's the key.
OMG it's shiny!
(7 months ago)  #88 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
+1
Sc owns korean scene because of the best game balance between 3 races and imo the best game tempo, when siege tank fires zerglings die alot :) and many others thing like u can have 6 12packs and u can lose them in 10 sec litterally and to top that u can have another 6 12 packs in like no time ready for next battle...
In WC3 the game tempo is slow the race limit is less and units dont die as fast as in SC and u cant produce as much as u want but wait u have Heroes but it showed that haveing 12 types of heroes brings some fun, but after a year the entertainment seems to disapierd...In WC3 everything must be calculated and ect ect also u should have good micro but not as good as in SC. that is why koreans play SC and they have lifted gamer life near to hollywood stars life in L.A that is why SC owns WC3 still, after thay had taverns and stuff like that but it didnt bring alot of inovation cos u alredy have had DotA map with now over 90 diferent heroes u can calculate the number of 2 sets of 5 packed heroes and the range of diferent strategies and the fun...
That is why DotA owns it is the same game like CS 1.x but with rts engine and alot of brain usage rather than reflexes...
Imo if blizard makes the game tempo of SC2 the same or close to WC3 rather than SC1 i think that koreans will stay playing SC1. And right now i think koreans set the benchmark of being progamer and the life u should have as like progamer and the status u get to enjoy..."ah and the sacrefice u need to do so that u can balance or even dont balance at all between real life and gamer life(i think there were some death cases in Korea and China
of children getting dead because playing to much hours and exosting them self to death i even remember that some little poor kid in China commited suecide cos he wanted to be closer to his DotA heroes cos he hear them calling him in his dreams and he wrote a goodbye letter to his mom explaining that..."

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #116 Dendra
Dendra
ah, feels so good to see more smart words on this website :) couldnt agree more with your point of view
If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #94 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
WC3 has already been through that evolution and is already reaching it's limit. There is no growing anymore and there will not be an evolution for WC3 since there already was.
Last edited by GenoZStriker at 20.11.2008, 22:39

Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #101 imported_ixion
imported_ixion
wc3 is far from the limit, every player brings something new to the game.
(7 months ago)  #117 Dendra
Dendra
ok...lets put it this way:

sc is closer to chess and...well i wont go in-depth but both have their advantages.

wc3 would be closer to chess if in chess a new figurine was added every few years to make the game fresh and enable creativity to the players - creativity in wc3 doesnt rely on mixing same old stuff in millions of ways, it relies on number of possible combinations, once they're dried out blizzard puts in a new hero, even a tavern, then some items, basically your creativity depends on how many heroes you can use and i dare to say items but i never played wc3 on high level so i cant make such statements with 100% certainty.

game spins around micro of your hero and some backup units, due to the ai it has no army control and other aspects of micro you can see in sc, basically it doesnt have a variety of micro, nor anything, only thing that changes are the things i listed above. game spins around the same things from the 1st minutes all the way to the ending minutes, whereas in sc game can spin around mini battles of 2-3units with each making a difference between victory and defeat, other times it can spin around 200/200 battles,same goes for micro and macro, there are no rules within the game that force you to do anything, nobody sais you cant go for a fast 200/200 limit or for some crazy fast build with a guerilla-style micro-intense attack,etc.

the differences between each choice can be huge and only thing that is huge in wc3 is the difference in opening the game with one hero or the other.
Last edited by Dendra at 04.12.2008, 09:18

If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #119 Hereticeighteen
Hereticeighteen
Thanks for the information, I appreciate it, as you clearly know more about this subject, :).
OMG it's shiny!
(7 months ago)  #80 Hereticeighteen
Hereticeighteen
And shoutcast DotA! Make more tourneys! Money will be at hand, then, ^^.
OMG it's shiny!
(7 months ago)  #95 GenoZStriker
GenoZStriker
In a way SC2 might mean the end of WC3 but then again it would still be merging 2 communities with each other which might be great.
Demigod ESL 2v2 Opening Cup - http://www.esl.eu/eu/demigod/
(7 months ago)  #96 Publiplz
 
I insist, this column is about war3 teams... DotA isn't a solution. It's a different game.
(7 months ago)  #98 C0DIllidan_demonH
Illidan_demonH
DotA is WC3 map but with much higher potentional than the game it self,
If they start to play games in WC3 say 2vs.2 not j one tour but alot and say u have 2x2 final in WCG than we will talk about teams as for now u can consider there are no teams just team tag the player uses for comercial use and sponsorhips get it?
Othervise in DotA there is no DotA fan that dont know Virtus.Pro MyM SK KS KS.int Mouz TeG IGG Rush3D DTS Sp Dota X6 8ball Met Srs PGS CooL and so and so, so u want to talk about teams in WC3 there are no teams in WC3....

100% Perfection is unachievable, but 99.9% is!
(7 months ago)  #97 Valykire
 
i play dota 4 fun sometimes like a game or two but only 2 get a rest from wc3.I dont know about sc and wc3 but in my opinion dota is going 2 be in the group of games like RA3,GH3,VF5 ... (just not exciting like wc3 , sc and cs1.6).
(7 months ago)  #115 Dendra
Dendra
agreed :)
If force won't work, use greater force.
(7 months ago)  #104 -MeOw-
-MeOw-
End of w3 teams?! o.o Oh no's!
*~oBz HoSt~*
(7 months ago)  #112 aTchOKiPik
aTchOKiPik
dota = too long, no wc3 experience to be good at, few skills involved ( n/c)
wow= bunch of fat nerdz who have never even played to wc3, average people in there may be 12.
war3= dying community becuz no more interests in the game, a generation which gets bored and focus on their life, studies, instead.
(please don't reply with endless comments...useless)
sc2 = same story, big amount of players at the beginning, lack of interest then, and eventually lil community that will discuss about end of sc2 teams ^^

stop speaking start fighting
(7 months ago)  #113 chelom
 
i think warcraft its better than dota slightly cause is more complex, but the thing that dota has is changes, we wont be able to see a change in warcraft in a lot of time or maybe never cause blizzard will just focus on sc2, but dota its diferent u see a new dota map every month or so so that keeps u up. so dota will last longer but warcraft its better.
(7 months ago)  #114 4KFPopcorn1
Popcorn1
It is sad to see these teams dispersing. It is like everything in life, hit the high point then start the slow decline until its dead. WC3 and all the teams were great. Just gotta hope there is something to be done to safe WC3.

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