MYM - Lets talk about 6.52

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DotA

17th May 2008, 22:30

Lets talk about 6.52

United State- IceFrog introduced 6.50 in February. Rather than a few minor bug fixes and balancing, this map has come to shock the community. The amount of changes are so severe, that it will entirely change the metagame if used.

The amount of change in this map is a lot to swallow. Blink Daggers will not be seen as much, beastmaster and sand king may not be seen as much and jungling will drastically change. Adapting to 6.52 will be difficult and so far the reactions from the competitive scene have been mostly negative.

Although some of the alterations may seem drastic, many feel it was time for a change. We decided to hear from the pro's about their thoughts on 6.52. We asked them 10 questions about the new map.

How much have you played 6.52 and what was your initial reaction?
How do you feel about the dagger nerf? Was it necessary?
Do you think you will draft heroes much differently now?
Would you like to see 6.52 used in league play?
What are your thoughts on the changes with the neutral spawns?
What are your thoughts about item muting and the inability to use enemy items?
Do you think backdoor should be allowed in league play now?
How do you feel about the added ban in -XL?
What are your thoughts on the changes with the flying courier?
What's the first hero that comes to mind, if I were to ask you to pick a hero that was never really drafted before that should be drafted now?

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Comments (43)

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(1 month ago) #1 myMYM\|TomLew

GJ Rinoa :D

(1 month ago) #2 NLNessaja

Read it all, some interesting opinions, there's only one way to find out how it's going to change and that is if leagues finally start using .52 - hopefully within the next 2 months.

(1 month ago) #3 myMYM\|matthe88

Great Job xD I was looking forward for it I=I=I=I=I=I=I The fence of the Ancients I=I=I=I=I=I

(1 month ago) #4 myMYM\|Champ-

#1.How much have you played 6.52 and what was your initial reaction? A lot since it came out, probably, 70 games. #2. How do you feel about the dagger nerf? Was it necessary? No I do not think it was necessary and i hate how the gold stays the same after that buff. You pay 2.1k to just initiate and not escape, waste of money imo, unless ur centaur. #3. Do you think you will draft heroes much differently now? Nah, maybe a few, but not to drastic. #4. Would you like to see 6.52 used in league play? Hmmm not yet, I wish it could just be the same map layout, with the bugs fixed (ex. sandkings stun and other stuff like that) #5. What are your thoughts on the changes with the neutral spawns? The Scourge had an advantage before for a spawn being right next to a wave in mid and one at top. #6. What are your thoughts about item muting and the inability to use enemy items? Umm fine that is for pubs, but for leagues no. They should have a separate mode, for that. #7. Do you think backdoor should be allowed in league play now? Nah, I think you should win a game fair and square, not by using a lame way of winning. #8. How do you feel about the added ban in -XL? Umm... ok I guess, more new heroes will be used. #9. What are your thoughts on the changes with the flying courier? Gay, wards on crow owned. #10. What's the first hero that comes to mind, if I were to ask you to pick a hero that was never really drafted before that should be drafted now? Alchemist, Um in pubs yes, leagues no. Last edited by Champ- at 17.05.2008, 22:55 Only the dead have seen the end of war!

(1 month ago) #5 chiko-_-

well .This new dagger and bottle makes dota more slow and its not about skill then , i mean before dota was more dinamic so u can do everything u want like with tiny for example u go behind enemy make bang with 2 nukz then jump out so it was also more interesting ,now u can see nubs buying radi in publics which just counter dagger 100%, also bottle its just nothing ...DOta become more boring no free things to do now, u should keep ur eyes at minimap and farm ... Stupid changes as for me ..

(1 month ago) #6 MYM\|slahser

"Honestly, flying courier should have no mana upgrade at all - should be unable to place wards. This is because in current league games, chicken allows to establish wards on key passages too early, eliminating both the tactical element of placing wards with a hero AND the possibility of early-game ganks and fights." Q9. Spot on from Lego-.

(1 month ago) #7 Dea

Lego- and iMbaQ 4 president!

(1 month ago) #8 PMSRinoa

Quoting slahser: "Honestly, flying courier should have no mana upgrade at all - should be unable to place wards. This is because in current league games, chicken allows to establish wards on key passages too early, eliminating both the tactical element of placing wards with a hero AND the possibility of early-game ganks and fights." Q9. Spot on from Lego-. I thought the same thing, I told him I never thought of it that way and it's so true! Probably the best answer out of all She's a maneater

(1 month ago) #9 RAAMZES

Well i dont agree with slahser that much :/ .I think that Flying courier should place wards but imo they wont do that now in 6.52 coz of mana upgread...that is 625 gold for something that can place wards...for that money u can buy 4 wards... but y i agree with slahser that on early game u couldnt do that much with ganks coz of courier with wards so i guess that they change courier from the same reason now...

(1 month ago) #10 myMYM\|genozstriker

Hmm, gay. IceFrog is trying to own the support players even more, poor Levent :( :D

(1 month ago) #11 I SUCKAngeLofGoD

Well the new dagger is just useless, they could higher cd of dagger from 30 to 45 or something like that.
The new hero i would choose now is puck, he just have everything a hero should have, escape/aoe-silence/aoe-stun/dodge= gg?
But 48b ftw

Last edited by AngeLofGoD at 17.05.2008, 23:23

(1 month ago) #12 myMYM\|matthe88

Quoting AngeLofGoD:

Well the new dagger is just useless, they could higher cd of dagger from 30 to 45 or something like that.

The dagger should not been used by every hero. It should be used by those heroes who actually need them like slardar, cent, Magna, rylai, roof, sk, es.
Nowadays it is abused by every hero. Did you realized that every game starts by buying a dagger for each hero? That many, maaany fights cant be fought because the heroes escape after the 1st nuke salve? Imo this is the right way.

I=I=I=I=I=I=I The fence of the Ancients I=I=I=I=I=I

(1 month ago) #13 I SUCKAngeLofGoD

I still dont think its the right way. You can make it double cooldown (60) Then you have to think when to use dagger, because nerly all fights are finished before 60 sec's

(1 month ago) #14 myMYM\|matthe88

The problem ist that a team wants to gank 1 hero, they want to nuke him and he escapes with dagger. Attack failed and this happens at least 30 times a game. This item should be used to start fights, not to end them before they actually began. I=I=I=I=I=I=I The fence of the Ancients I=I=I=I=I=I

(1 month ago) #15 I SUCKAngeLofGoD

I totally disagree, there should allways be an option escapeing from a gank, its only fun and fair watching 3-5 heroes failing a gang :) So just make cooldown 60 and we are all happy ..

(1 month ago) #16 mouzFragalot

I agree fully with angelofgod here a super highcooldown would be much better than what it is now. If u blink out of a gank then it will be very hard to fight the other team before u have cooldown again

(1 month ago) #17 naitsirhCseyeR

yup ICEFROG should change the chicken's flying courier mana.... poor levent -mania pupupupumpupumpum! C=(^_^Q)

(1 month ago) #18 doomgunner

Quoting AngeLofGoD: I totally disagree, there should allways be an option escapeing from a gank, its only fun and fair watching 3-5 heroes failing a gang :) So just make cooldown 60 and we are all happy .. Escaping a gank with dagger is not fair. When you get ganked you should suffer it because it is your own lack of map awareness that got you into that situation, it is unfair for you to bail out just with you 2k dagger. Having a one-click anti-gank button that is viable on any hero(with old blink dagger) is one of the most imba features of .48b considering only a few hero have one-click gank button(bm/jugg...,etc) Last edited by doomgunner at 18.05.2008, 04:21

(1 month ago) #19 Stalkerstarz

Will definitely miss spectre's dispersion..and yeah the usage of dagger is less effective now..but its good for the game also =)

(1 month ago) #20 hellstar

Agree with Slasher abt the upgrade-bird =.='' too expensive and the hex item- lower damgage+higher price :( creep start at 2.0min =] ...etc

(1 month ago) #21 Mindreko

Yeah it's probably better to have a higher cooldown on the dagger since dagger is so useless in escaping, especially when the other team has Radiance.

(1 month ago) #22 myMYM\|S0th

I think linkens will be bought and abused. Perfect item in Clan wars now.

(1 month ago) #23 Smu666ler

I was against the changes at first. Then I played it for a while. Recently I downloaded a professional replay, the retrospect of the 6.48b version and I have to say I was kinda dissapointed. One team had no less then 4 daggers. Maybe it wasn't as noticable until these changes were made, but that item was crazily overused and deserved a severe nerf. Something that couldn't be handled with a cd increase. Asking for a cd increase sounds more like fooling yourself while not wanting for it to be really nerfed. I like the bird changes too, and there are more items of choice for intelligence based carry heroes, even though hex is harder to get. Spectre is nerfed too much I'm afraid though as unpredictibility that it had was what creates a swing or even situations in encounters. It was an ogre magi kind of thing. One of the key qualities of dota is the fact that you have 90 heroes that feel trully unique flavor and playstyle-wise. That fact is hampered with some of the overpowered items that are used by too many heroes. This is especially true to the items that give you a new ability, like dagger or hex for example. That's why I feel the changes will alter the professional dota game in a good way, to be more diverse with hero choices. Only time will tell if this is true of course. Last edited by Smu666ler at 18.05.2008, 18:20

(1 month ago) #24 DavidChoe

#1.How much have you played 6.52 and what was your initial reaction? A lot #2. How do you feel about the dagger nerf? Was it necessary? I agree with the above and think that a high cooldown was needed. Not its current form. It's not just radiance that can screw up an initiation, it could be zeus' ult or spec's ult too (others as well). #3. Do you think you will draft heroes much differently now? There will be some difference. #4. Would you like to see 6.52 used in league play? Maybe in a couple of versions? #5. What are your thoughts on the changes with the neutral spawns? I don't really care that much #6. What are your thoughts about item muting and the inability to use enemy items? I don't think it really matters in league matches. #7. Do you think backdoor should be allowed in league play now? base towers should not be open for backdoor. The other towers I don't mind that much #8. How do you feel about the added ban in -XL? This could amount to the same heroes being banned in every match and it could also result in a larger array of heroes being used. Currently many of the same heroes are banned every match with the occasional variation (QoP, Mag, Lock, Zeus, Bm, Na, Potm, etc.). With more bans, wouldn't all the top heroes most likely get banned? #9. What are your thoughts on the changes with the flying courier? I like the idea that it would be harder to ward river early. #10. What's the first hero that comes to mind, if I were to ask you to pick a hero that was never really drafted before that should be drafted now? Drow or Jugg. You could even see more chasing heroes such as Night Stalker or Lycan as long as blink doesn't change.

(1 month ago) #25 killerkoala

if im not mistaken ADC is using 6.52, will be interesting to see how the players adapt to the map change

(1 month ago) #26 Wizardro

01# How much have you played 6.52 and what was your initial reaction? played a lot after it was first released... but now only in a 2v2 tournament that has it as official map... too many changes for pub and too few for pro play... if dota wants to make it on the pro games theater then changes should be made only for pro play... 02# How do you feel about the dagger nerf? Was it necessary? Not really... this item brought more fun to the game then any other... and in 6.52 will be replaced by lothars... which received a huge buff... probably the direction is wrong when it comes to this kind of changes... I'm sure we will see lothars on all heroes if 6.52 will ever get to be played in leagues... 03# Do you think you will draft heroes much differently now? When it comes to support heroes probably... more and more THD/Necrolyte will replace lina/lesh because stun is no longer required to prevent dagger... and also unable to use it to escape leads to having Intel Heroes with heal or more hp 04# Would you like to see 6.52 used in league play? No 05# What are your thoughts on the changes with the neutral spawns? More balanced position wise... but Scourge forest still is better then sent... to many paths in scourge forest... allows access to 4 camps quite fast... 06# What are your thoughts about item muting and the inability to use enemy items? Pub-change.... 07# Do you think backdoor should be allowed in league play now? Never 08# How do you feel about the added ban in -XL? Interesting... will allow teams that know each other better to ban certain key player-hero combo but still allow banning of imba heroes... on the other hand most bans are {Magna/na/bm/potm/qop/zeus/lock/dazzle} if 1st picking bans 3 from this pool and 1 outside it will force 2nd team to do the same else they will face a strong 1st pick... 09# What are your thoughts on the changes with the flying courier? good and bad at the same time... not allowing currier to carry aegis is just wrong... but the extra 200 gold is good delays a bit the ward placing... 10# What's the first hero that comes to mind, if I were to ask you to pick a hero that was never really drafted before that should be drafted now? Dragon Knight Last edited by Wizardro at 19.05.2008, 00:22 "Only the dead have seen the end of the war!" Plato

(1 month ago) #27 princericky

ermm.. interesting.. but firstly abt the dagger issues... it is not abusing... do you think you can run away so easily when you are playing with top teams?? actually a better teams would have prepared a proper ambush or strategy in case if the hero dagger somewhere else... therefore to escape you need a skill.. i have saw some other team although their tried to escape with dagger but they still failed... MUST HAVE SKILL...

(1 month ago) #28 C4Wesoo

I think old dagger is better, but if they have to change they have to change it cost for 3k or 3.5k, so players will consider buying another item that will give him some status from buying dagger with no status increased.

(1 month ago) #29 ndheey

yeeeeppp.. i'm agree with c4 wesoo.... i prefer to buy lothar than dagger when i use nvm... may be other players now will do same things like me when they see the daggers cost... but why i feel with this 6.52 that easier to collect gold, cause every time when i play it i just became more rich than usual when i'm playing the old maps (i mean the maps before 6.50)... :)

(1 month ago) #30 Ilogis

With Nevermore Dagger > Lothar
Now Lothar 's still a decent item , use on few agi heroes like Sniper, Drow , or Viper
Who think everyhero use Lothar is stupid

Last edited by Ilogis at 19.05.2008, 07:20

(1 month ago) #31 ndheey

oops!!! i think there are some miss understanding here... i'm not talking about every hero... just give some exmpl about some heroes that usually need dagger to cast their spell easier.. so i mention like nvm, or like you said before like snip, drow or viper... but did you think i recomnded that every people use lothar when play dota....??? OMG... so it mean that i recomend that every people can use lothar when play bc, or gondar.. hahaha... no i don't mean like that... btw sory for my words before, i'm so busy with my work when write these comments... and btw again, i really want to discuss about visage on 6.52 in these room, so pliss start the topic... :)

(1 month ago) #34 Wizardro

and where is you last official IQ test scorecard? "Only the dead have seen the end of the war!" Plato

(1 month ago) #32 pambihira

#1.How much have you played 6.52 and what was your initial reaction? A lot. Thank God for something new. #2. How do you feel about the dagger nerf? Was it necessary? If its for Kelen dagger of escape then what a joke! haha. Necessary in the sense that AM, and QOP's blink was trivialized.. Plus a hero can escape even when under a 5v1 scenario. #3. Do you think you will draft heroes much differently now? Hopefully but not probably.. The same heroes with very good skills(esp with stuns) and synergy regardless of the nerf is too good to pass up. #4. Would you like to see 6.52 used in league play? Minus the bugs, YES!!! #5. What are your thoughts on the changes with the neutral spawns? Very good. More gold and xp to farm(better reason to go jungling) But with the camps I feel a little advantage is on the sent side. #6. What are your thoughts about item muting and the inability to use enemy items? Neutral on this.. But.. I want to use the items dropped on a fried chicken of my enemy >:) #7. Do you think backdoor should be allowed in league play now? by backdoor do you mean the one where furion can teleport to the enemy's throne at the start of the game and whack the tree? NO! But otherwise yes.. When a low level char BD a tower and dies everyone calls him a noob but when a hi level char bd then will be called gay.. besides with the faster tempo of the game right now late game bd heroes(most notably clinkz) will have lesser time to farm and gain godly items. No more downed towers in 5secs or less. Also, Both teams can BD. Its their choice of heroes that will ultimately affect the strategy of the team. and it keeps both teams on their toes more :) #8. How do you feel about the added ban in -XL? Very good! Make the ban 5 :p More oft-used heroes being banned means greater chance other heroes will be used. More strategies, techniques, team picks, basically more variation in games being played. Healthy for the competitive scene #9. What are your thoughts on the changes with the flying courier? I'm for it. The faster tempo with the removal of tower regen was balanced with the flying courier (more early warding less chances for gank, more tower hugging, etc). Would like to see the invulnerability removed or lesser duration.. but the speed boost duration lengthened and slightly lesser CD #10. What's the first hero that comes to mind, if I were to ask you to pick a hero that was never really drafted before that should be drafted now? No brainer Puck will be chosen. The hero has not been introduced in leagues yet and was already nerfed hahaha. Some heroes that will be used due to their buffs now are Treant, and Lion. Last edited by pambihira at 19.05.2008, 14:42

(1 month ago) #33 ~~CAPTAINCAPSLOCK